RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
Oh my bad.
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Calvanism leaves me feeling ill
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RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
Does the Bible say he loves us all? If it does then God has to give everyone a fair shot at understanding the Gospel. No one is exempt from his grace. Saying that God made an individual disbelieve is like saying the Devil made me do it.
Thana
Lady
Well I'm not saying it, The bible is. God hardened pharaoh's heart.
Make of that what you will.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
If it were necessary to believe in calvinism to be a Christian. I would not be a Christian.
I find calvinism an abhorrent belief, that distorts the nature and love of God.
I find calvinism an abhorrent belief, that distorts the nature and love of God.
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
We all know the verse in the Gospel of John that says God loved the world. Now what does that mean that God loved the world? Did it mean that God loved the way the world works? The first epistle of John says no. (I John. 2:15-17) Why? The world is driven by selfishness and us-against-them mentality. Calvin's doctrine purports that us-against-them mentality by making the elect a certain status above the rest. This is not what God intended when he created the earth. When he talks about the world in John chapter 3 he must be talking about the race of man. How can God love the whole race of man if he only attempts to save some of them?
we-live-now
Active Member
It goes beyond that. It says he IS love. Pure love. 1 John 4:8. I love that. I also love to then read 1 Cor 13 about love. I especially enjoy these:
It goes beyond that... it says he IS love. His very essence is love. 1 John 4:8 I love that.
Then, we can read in 1 Cor 13 more about him (who IS love). I especially find great peace in these parts:
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant 1 Corinthians 13:4
and
Love never fails 1 Cor 13:8 (partial)
Ponder those two things alone, especially "Love NEVER fails". This really says that "GOD never fails", does it not? Now add in this one single verse and you have not only 100% totally and completely destroyed Calvinism, but (most of) Christianity too.
End of story.
What does this God who defines his essence as "LOVE" want (of which he CAN'T FAIL at)?
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth 1 Timothy 2:4
Here is the truth of what WILL happen and can't NOT occur. (sorry for the double-negative)
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive 1 Corinthians 15:22
Isn't this great news?
It is to me. So few believe it though....but it's our job to tell them! 2 Cor 5:18 No, our PRIVELAGE! I am 100% convinced that God truly IS good and he IS love and he NEVER fails. He is willing to WAIT FOREVER if that is what is required.
we-live-now (Duane)
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Norman
Defender of Truth
Norman: SaintMatthew, Here is just a tid-bit of history to start with.
John Calvin: born at Noyon in Picardy, France, 10 July, 1509, and died at Geneva, 27 May, 1564. (Apostate Catholic Priest) five point Calvinism: Total inability, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, Perseverance of the saints, A generation divided him from Luther, whom he never met. By birth, education, and temper these two protagonists of the reforming movement were strongly contrasted. Luther was a Saxon peasant, his father a miner; Calvin sprang from the French middle-class, and his father, an attorney, had purchased the freedom of the City of Noyon, where he practised civil and canon law. German "Territorial" Religion In 1556 the Pfalsgraf, Otto Heinrich, declared the doctrine of Luther to be the exclusive religion of the land. But his successor, Frederick III, only three years later, established Calvinism as the State religion. His son, Ludwig, however, in 1576 brought Lutheranism in again, and banished from the country all Calvinist ministers, teachers and officials. In 1583 the pendulum swung back once more, and Ludwig's brother Johann re-established Calvinism. Thus the unhappy people, in the space of less than forty years, were compelled to change their religious faith four times, to say nothing of the original change from Catholicism to Protestantism! (92:98)
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
It is interesting that the Greek language has 4 different words for love. Three of which are used in the Christian Greek Scriptures and the fourth is spoken about in the Hebrew Scriptures, though not identified as such directly. (For one is was Hebrew text - not Greek)
When 1 John 4:8 says God is love, it is using the word a·ga′pe. Literally this is love based off of principle. Jehovah is a principled God. Everything he loves is based on his righteous standards. This is the same love described for us at 1 Corinthians 13:4-8a. This love embraces a deliberate assent of the will as a matter of principle.
The other 3 are
phi·li′a - 'tender affections' for a friend
stor·ge′- the natural affection between members of the same family.
e'ros - romantic love
Romans 12:9,10 is a very interesting passage that combines 3 of these words:
"Let your love (a·ga′pe) be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is wicked; cling to what is good. In brotherly love (phi·la·del·phi′a) have tender affection (phi·lo′stor·gos, a compound word of phi′los and stor·ge′) for one another. In showing honor to one another, take the lead. (or "initiative.")"
we-live-now
Active Member
Those are very good points! I looked into the words (as I knew that, but forgot) and my heart tells me that we must put principles of truth above people.
This will throw the conversation off and I apologize for that, but did you know there are also 4 different original words translated as "Jesus", "John", "Christ" (plus more) and 2 different original words translated as "Peter"?
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
I know that Peter was named in five different ways in the Scriptures and one of those names [Peter] literally means "a piece of rock." So Jesus words about a rock/rock-mass gets confusing as to whom Jesus was actually referring to, himself or Peter.
I do not know if I am aware of the other name variants you mentioned. Sometimes(often) this brain of mine needs to be reminded of what it knows.
- "Symeon" - from a Hebrew root meaning 'hear;listen'
- the Greek variant "Simon"
- Peter (Greek)
- the Hebrew variant "Cephas" - perhaps related to the Hebrew ke-phim' [rocks]
- Simon Peter
I do not know if I am aware of the other name variants you mentioned. Sometimes(often) this brain of mine needs to be reminded of what it knows.
we-live-now
Active Member
Boy, your thoughts bring me to the exact thing that has been on my mind today. I will start a new post.
Imagine that God creates a boat and places people on the boat with the instruction that they should remain on the boat because no one is able to swim.
The people, always knowing better than God, leap from the boat into the water.
Every person has been told to remain on the boat and every person chooses to leap into the water because that is what people do.
So God ties a rope to a lifesaver and throws it into the water, begging people to grab on and be pulled back into the boat.
Legions of angels join him in the task of throwing ropes and life preservers to all of the drowning people.
Some people hold onto the life preserver for a while, but never long enough for them to be pulled back to safety.
Some people barely touch the life preserver and make no real effort to hold on.
Some people do not even attempt to grab the life saver and simply sink.
All of the people are drowning.
All of God's cooperative efforts to work with man to save him meet with failure.
God not responsible for the choice of the people to leap into the water.
God is not responsible for the inability of the people to hold on long enough to be pulled to safety.
God is not responsible for the unwillingness of some to even desire his help.
It would be reasonable for God to abandon his efforts.
It would be reasonable for God to allow the natural consequences of the people's actions and weakness to drag them to the bottom of the ocean FOREVER.
However, God finds the reality that all of the people that he loves and created will be lost ... unacceptable.
So God does the unthinkable.
God leaps from the boat with a lifesaver and swims out to save some of the people.
God places the life saver around a corpse, drags it back to the boat and administers CPR to revive it.
Then he jumps in to save another ... and another.
The people on the boat look around and ask "Why me?" ... there is no answer except Grace.
... and all you see is an abhorant teaching about how little love this so-called God has.
RedDragon94
Love everyone, meditate often
However, I counter this and say that there are some who hold on to the life preserver. (John 1:12-13) No man convinced them that they should trust in the Jesus, the Holy Spirit simply convicted them in that moment and changed their heart. It would be downright asinine not to reach out and hold on to the life preserver when it is thrown out to you. Jesus is that life preserver, (John 14:6) only he can meet the sinner where they are and love them into the kingdom of God. But there will be people that take the love you give them and use you instead of change their hearts, just look at Judas. Judas had the life preserver in his hands and chose to reject the life giving power it had and he chose to swim away from it and as a result drowned.
So if God is not responsible for our downfalls then that means that we are. What this tells me is that salvation is a personal decision made by every man. It tells me that grace is resistible. Judas had a choice whether or not to betray Jesus. To say he didn't makes God the cause of sin, which we know he cannot make anybody sin nor does he tempt anyone. (James 1:13) Let me ask when God lead the nation of Israel out of Egypt does God ever say that he will make them prosperous without their actions lining up with what he wants from them? He always says that their actions must add up and then as a result he will bless them. Look through the Torah and tell me if it says that the nation of Israel is blessed by God while they are in sin. God says time and again that if they disobey they will have to pay for it, that isn't what God intended for them. (Deuteronomy 30:17-18)
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
A rather inappropriate anecdote.................
However Calvinism is about more than Grace which we all accept.
Frankly, yes, because Calvinism teaches that God wanted people to not hold on to the life preserver. Calvinism (at least in its purest form) teaches that God created people for the sole purpose of sending them to Hell to show He's boss--He created them so that they would never accept salvation. Calvinism denies that God wants all to be saved, not just a lucky few.
Sand Dancer
Crazy Cat Lady
I was a Calvinist for about an hour, until I decided that God is not that arbitrary and cruel.
Could you provide a Calvinist source for that?
I understand the teaching of John Calvin to be that without God's intervention, NOBODY would choose salvation and EVERYBODY would be lost.
Ultimately, Calvinist or Arminean, if you believe that God created everyone and you believe that some people will not be saved, then you are stuck with the conclusion that God created some souls whose ultimate purpose is destruction.
Non-Calvinists take solace in the fact that everyone had a chance and the damned 'got what they deserve' for rejecting God (you will undoubtedly paint it with some prettier words, but it is still just lipstick on a pig ... that is still the bottom line).
This Calvinist would argue that EVERYONE falls into that 'had a chance, damned, got what they deserve' group, and God offers special pardons to save some in spite of themselves.
Since you claim that Calvinism teaches differently, I really would like to see some source for your interpretation of what Calvinism teaches.
Just as a starting point, here is the Wikipedia summary of the 5 points of Calvinism:
- "Total depravity," also called "total inability," asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person is enslaved to sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God but rather to serve their own interests and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as they could be).[76] This doctrine is derived from Augustine's explanation of Original Sin.[77] While the phrases "totally depraved" and "utterly perverse" were used by Calvin, what was meant was the inability to save oneself from sin rather than being absent of goodness. Phrases like "total depravity" cannot be found in the Canons of Dort, and the Canons as well as later Reformed orthodox theologians arguably offer a more moderate view of the nature of fallen humanity than Calvin.[78]
- "Unconditional election" asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, his choice is unconditionally grounded in his mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God.[79]
- "Limited atonement," also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", asserts that Jesus's substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its purpose and in what it accomplished. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus's death. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is intended for some and not all. Some Calvinists have summarized this as "The atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect."[80] All Calvinists would affirm that the blood of Christ was sufficient to pay for every single human being IF it were God's intention to save every single human being. But Calvinists are also quick to point out that Jesus did not spill a drop of blood in vain (Galatians 2:21), and therefore, we can only be sure that His blood sufficed for those for whom it was intended, however many (Matthew 26:28) or few (Matthew 7:14) that may be. Some Calvinists also teach that the atonement accomplished certain benefits for all mankind, albeit, not their eternal salvation.[81] The doctrine is driven by the Calvinistic concept of the sovereignty of God in salvation and their understanding of the nature of the atonement.[citation needed] At the Synod of Dort, both sides agreed that the atonement of Christ's death was sufficient to pay for all sin and that it was only efficacious for some (it only actually saved some). The controversy centered on whether this limited efficacy was based on God's election (the view of the Synod and of later Reformed theologians) or on the choice of each person and God's foreknowledge of that choice (the view of Arminius).[82]
- "Irresistible grace," also called "efficacious grace", asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that this purposeful influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ." This is not to deny the fact that the Spirit’s outward call (through the proclamation of the Gospel) can be, and often is, rejected by sinners; rather, it’s that inward call which cannot be rejected.
- "Perseverance of the saints" (or perseverance of God with the saints) (the word "saints" is used to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not of those who are exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven) asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with (1 John 2:19), or, if they are saved but not presently walking in the Spirit, they will be divinely chastened (Hebrews 12:5–11) and will repent (1 John 3:6–9).[83]
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JM2C
CHRISTIAN
From the beginning to the end of a movie, once it start showing in the theater, cannot be edited anymore or what they call, the final cut or the final edited version of the film.
Let’s for example say that in this movie there were two main characters, one is a good person with good deeds or everything s/he does is nothing but good, and the other one is really a bad person, just the opposite of the other guy, everything s/he does is nothing but bad. The moviegoers would assume then that the good person will definitely go to heaven and the bad person to hell, or IOW, the moviegoers would have an assumption already that they, the good and the bad, were PREDESTINED already base on their works, i.e., good or bad.
Now, just before the end of the movie, one the moviegoers went out to buy a soda and when s/he came back s/he found out that the good person, with all the good deeds, is in hell and the bad person is in heaven with God, and then in disbelief s/he asked a friend, how is that happened?
At the end, the friend said, just before the good and the bad person died, the bad person believed and accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, while the good person took a chance on the good works as her/his way to heaven and accepted nothing that God has to offer.
Predestination is just the like a movie, before it starts showing in the theater, the director makes the final editing and once it’s edited and start showing in the theater it cannot be EDITED anymore.
Predestination is scripted already, both for the good and the bad, before the foundation of the world or the beginning of the creation and cannot be EDITED anymore. IOW, before the beginning "The Lord knows those who are his, -2Ti 2:19" already.
“It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.” –Romans 9:16, 17
Let’s for example say that in this movie there were two main characters, one is a good person with good deeds or everything s/he does is nothing but good, and the other one is really a bad person, just the opposite of the other guy, everything s/he does is nothing but bad. The moviegoers would assume then that the good person will definitely go to heaven and the bad person to hell, or IOW, the moviegoers would have an assumption already that they, the good and the bad, were PREDESTINED already base on their works, i.e., good or bad.
Now, just before the end of the movie, one the moviegoers went out to buy a soda and when s/he came back s/he found out that the good person, with all the good deeds, is in hell and the bad person is in heaven with God, and then in disbelief s/he asked a friend, how is that happened?
At the end, the friend said, just before the good and the bad person died, the bad person believed and accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, while the good person took a chance on the good works as her/his way to heaven and accepted nothing that God has to offer.
Predestination is just the like a movie, before it starts showing in the theater, the director makes the final editing and once it’s edited and start showing in the theater it cannot be EDITED anymore.
Predestination is scripted already, both for the good and the bad, before the foundation of the world or the beginning of the creation and cannot be EDITED anymore. IOW, before the beginning "The Lord knows those who are his, -2Ti 2:19" already.
The bad person asked the same thing, “Why me?”
“It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.” –Romans 9:16, 17
Here's my source. God doesn't want everyone to be saved, otherwise He would offer "special pardons", as you put it, to ALL, not just "some". The Calvinist view of a Limited Atonement is in no way Scriptural, and very sad to think about. John Calvin was a lawyer, not a theologian, and his cold legalism spills all over into his view of a careless, aloof God.
And God only chooses to save some, arbitrarily, without care for anyone else.
From Chapter 21, Book III of John Calvin's Institutes of Christian Religion:
But if it is plainly owing to the mere pleasure of God that salvation is spontaneously offered to some, while others have no access to it, great and difficult questions immediately arise, questions which are inexplicable, when just views are not entertained concerning election and predestination. To many this seems a perplexing subject, because they deem it most incongruous that of the great body of mankind some should be predestinated to salvation, and others to destruction. How ceaselessly they entangle themselves will appear as we proceed. We may add, that in the very obscurity which deters them, we may see not only the utility of this doctrine, but also its most pleasant fruits. We shall never feel persuaded as we ought that our salvation flows from the free mercy of God as its fountain, until we are made acquainted with his eternal election, the grace of God being illustrated by the contrast--viz. that he does not adopt all promiscuously to the hope of salvation, but gives to some what he denies to others.
...
5. The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny; but it is greatly caviled at, especially by those who make prescience its cause. . . . By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.
...
5. The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny; but it is greatly caviled at, especially by those who make prescience its cause. . . . By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.
Straight from the horse's mouth. This is not a God that so loved the world. This is not a God that is Love. This is not a God Who desires that all be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. No, this is a God that plays a cosmic lottery with our souls without care for us. John Calvin speaks of God's grace, but there is no grace in this teaching, only capriciousness.
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