Calvanism leaves me feeling ill

[Spiderman]

So this whole idea that God made some people vessels of wrath predestined for hell just makes me sick! How is that fair to the people that through no choice of their own were simply created destined for eternal misery and separation from God.

So, if you are a Calvinist, im not saying you make me ill , but rather the idea that people are created destined for hell and those very people could be your son or daughter or spouse or friend, is an idea that just makes me feel sick when I think of it as possibly the truth.

It just isn't fair to them who didn't decide to be that way that they should have to suffer eternal punishment for just being who they are and who they were created to be. I feel there are many beautiful depictions of God, but fail to see the beauty in Calvinism. Maybe you can help me out?

 

[Thana]

To play devil's advocate, There is scripture that I think aptly defends the calvinist mindset.

Romans 9:17-21

"For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?' Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"

 

[Valjean]

What does fairness have to do with Christianity?

 

[Glaurung]

Of course it's repugnant , considering scripture clearly indicates God desires the salvation of all.

That said, I do believe that God has a predestined plan for every human being, but this plan neither negates freedom or reprobates anyone who has not freely chosen it.

 

[Spiderman]

yes I can see how biblically a person would be a Calvinist. I just can't see how somebody could like Calvinism. even if it is true, I still couldn't like it.

I will later present some scriptures though that totally go against Calvinist philosophy. I'm just feeling a bit tired now, so it will wait.

 

[Glaurung]

s I can see how biblically a person would be a Calvinist. I just can't see how somebody could like Calvinism. even if it is true, I still couldn't like it

Then you don't understand Calvinism. You cannot like it no more than you can grow wings and fly, because you have not been predestined to the grace required to accept the Gospel.

 

[Kolibri]

There is another way of understanding these verses that has nothing to do with Calvinism at all. First let's requote the verses so we can look directly at them.

"But who are you, O man, to be answering back to God? Does the thing molded say to its molder: 'Why have you made me this way?' What? Does not the potter have authority over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for an honorable use, another for a dishonorable use? What then, if God had the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, and he tolerated with much patience vessels of wrath made fit for destruction?" - Romans 9:21-23

Now lets compare with the other time uses this illustration:

"Now in a large house there are utensils (or "vessels.") not only of gold and silver but also of wood and earthenware, and some for an honorable use but others for a use lacking honor. So if anyone keeps clear of the latter ones, he will be an instrument (or "a utensil; a vessel.") for an honorable use, sanctified, useful to his owner, prepared for every good work. So flee from youthful desires, but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a clean heart." - 2 Timothy 2:20-22

Finally lets pull from one of the passages Paul was referencing in Romans:

"Then the word of Jehovah came to me, saying: '"Can I not do to you just as this potter did, O house of Israel?" declares Jehovah. "Look! As the clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. Whenever I may speak about uprooting and pulling down and destroying a nation or a kingdom, and that nation abandons its wickedness that I spoke against, I will also change my mind concerning (or "feel regret over.") that I intended to bring against it. But whenever I speak about building up and planting a nation or a kingdom, and it does what is bad in my eyes and does not obey my voice, I will change my mind concerning (or "feel regret over.") the good that I intended to do for it."'" - Jeremiah 18:5-10

Notice in both 2 Timothy and in Jeremiah it was the vessel that determined if it would be honorable or dishonorable? Romans can simply be read to mean that God will declare one as honorable and another as dishonorable by how they respond to his instruction. There may be both types of vessel present, but which type Jehovah will classify us as individually is up to us.

 

[Kolibri]

what about Romans 9:17 about God hardening Pharaoh's heart?

Foreknowledge, Foreordination — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
/quote
Jehovah foreknew that Pharaoh would refuse permission for the Israelites to leave “except by a strong hand” (Ex 3:19, 20), and he foreordained the plague resulting in the death of the firstborn. (Ex 4:22, 23) The apostle Paul’s discussion of God’s dealings with Pharaoh is often incorrectly understood to mean that God arbitrarily hardens the heart of individuals according to his foreordained purpose, without regard for the individual’s prior inclination, or heart attitude. (Ro 9:14-18) Likewise, according to many translations, God advised Moses that he would “harden [Pharaoh’s] heart.” (Ex 4:21; compare Ex 9:12; 10:1, 27.) However, some translations render the Hebrew account to read that Jehovah “let [Pharaoh’s] heart wax bold” (Ro); “let [Pharaoh’s] heart become obstinate.” (NW) In support of such rendering, the appendix to Rotherham’s translation shows that in Hebrew the occasion or permission of an event is often presented as if it were the cause of the event, and that “even positive commands are occasionally to be accepted as meaning no more than permission.” Thus at Exodus 1:17 the original Hebrew text literally says that the midwives “caused the male children to live,” whereas in reality they permitted them to live by refraining from putting them to death. After quoting Hebrew scholars M. M. Kalisch, H. F. W. Gesenius, and B. Davies in support, Rotherham states that the Hebrew sense of the texts involving Pharaoh is that “God permitted Pharaoh to harden his own heart—spared him—gave him the opportunity, the occasion, of working out the wickedness that was in him. That is all.”—The Emphasised Bible, appendix, p. 919; compare Isa 10:5-7.

Corroborating this understanding is the fact that the record definitely shows that Pharaoh himself “hardened his heart.” (Ex 8:15, 32, KJ; “made his heart unresponsive,” NW) He thus exercised his own will and followed his own stubborn inclination, the results of which inclination Jehovah accurately foresaw and predicted. The repeated opportunities given him by Jehovah obliged Pharaoh to make decisions, and in doing so he became hardened in his attitude. (Compare Ec 8:11, 12.) As the apostle Paul shows by quoting Exodus 9:16, Jehovah allowed the matter to develop in this way to the full length of ten plagues in order to make manifest his own power and cause his name to be made known earth wide.—Ro 9:17, 18.
/endquote

I thought it was an interesting comparison to Exodus 1:17

 

[Kolibri]

Because of what is posted in #8 (that permission of an event is often presented as if it were the cause of the event) it might be interesting to read this part with the sense of permission restored to this section of Romans.

"What are we to say, then? Is there injustice with God? Certainly not! For he says to Moses: 'I will show mercy to whomever I will show mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I will show compassion.' So, then, it depends, not on a person's desire or on his effort, (Lit., "not on the one who desires nor on the one who runs.") but on God, who has mercy. For the scripture says to Phar'aoh: 'For this very reason I have let you remain: to show my power in connection with you and to have my name declared in all the earth.' So, then, he has mercy on whomever he wishes, but he lets whomever he wishes become obstinate." - Romans 9:14-18

 

[muhammad_isa]

..the idea that people are created destined for hell and those very people could be your son or daughter or spouse or friend, is an idea that just makes me feel sick when I think of it as possibly the truth.

It just isn't fair to them who didn't decide to be that way that they should have to suffer eternal punishment for just being who they are and who they were created to be..

This is often misunderstood .. the problem lies within the understanding of 'predestination'

The correct understanding is that although Almighty God knows everything from "the beginning of time to the end of time" ( the prophets were foretold of events to happen later, for example ), this doesn't mean that we have no free-will to choose .. it simply means that the nature of time is complex, as Einstein realised..

ie. it appears to us that the future 'has not yet happened', but God is not bounded by 'His created universe'

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

So this whole idea that God made some people vessels of wrath predestined for hell just makes me sick! How is that fair to the people that through no choice of their own were simply created destined for eternal misery and separation from God.

So, if you are a Calvinist, im not saying you make me ill , but rather the idea that people are created destined for hell and those very people could be your son or daughter or spouse or friend, is an idea that just makes me feel sick when I think of it as possibly the truth.

It just isn't fair to them who didn't decide to be that way that they should have to suffer eternal punishment for just being who they are and who they were created to be. I feel there are many beautiful depictions of God, but fail to see the beauty in Calvinism. Maybe you can help me out?

Charles Spurgeon once said that "Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."

I will address some misunderstandings of Calvinist doctrine that are in your post which will hopefully clear some things up. You may very well continue to find Calvinism repugnant, but I hope not as repugnant as you did before.

Firstly, Calvinists do not believe people go to Hell through no choice of their own. Those who subscribe to double predestination (not all Calvinists do) will indeed say that God has predestined some to be vessels of wrath. However, this does not remove their responsibility or their choice. Everyone is born corrupted by sin, God may only choose some to be saved and redeemed, but those who are not redeemed still choose every sin, they still choose to be in rebellion to God. They are not forced to rebel against God but by their actions and rebellion all will sin and fall short. If God chose to save no one, it would be perfectly just, for all of us deserve Hell. That God saves any is merciful.

So all humans are still responsible for their actions. That God chooses to not save all does not remove the guilt of those who have chosen to rebel against Him. By making some to be vessels of wrath, God is not forcing them but allowing them to continue in their natural sinful ways and face the consequences of their own choices against Him.

The beauty of Calvinism is that God's glory will win in the end, and man's will cannot frustrate the plan of God. As it says in Romans 9 perhaps God has endured vessels of wrath in order "to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy". The beauty is that the elect had no part in their salvation, we are struck in awe by the grace and mercy of God who died for us, and saved us through no effort or merit of our own, and we did not deserve it. God is totally in control, and all things will work out for the good of those who love Him. The full display of God's grace, holiness, justice, wrath, love and mercy is God's glory, and when it is fully displayed we can know God to the fullest and love God to the fullest.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Then you don't understand Calvinism. You cannot like it no more than you can grow wings and fly, because you have not been predestined to the grace required to accept the Gospel.

I think that's why he asked the question and is venting because he wants to understand the thought of Calvinism--that God has chosen who will go to hell and who will not (even though we do not know who will)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So this whole idea that God made some people vessels of wrath predestined for hell just makes me sick! How is that fair to the people that through no choice of their own were simply created destined for eternal misery and separation from God.

So, if you are a Calvinist, im not saying you make me ill , but rather the idea that people are created destined for hell and those very people could be your son or daughter or spouse or friend, is an idea that just makes me feel sick when I think of it as possibly the truth.

It just isn't fair to them who didn't decide to be that way that they should have to suffer eternal punishment for just being who they are and who they were created to be. I feel there are many beautiful depictions of God, but fail to see the beauty in Calvinism. Maybe you can help me out?

I think the idea of Calvinism is that God knows who will be saved; but, His knowing doesn't mean we can't be saved we just don't know we are.

What bothers me is that people think they know they are saved or predestined when only God knows these things, we can only hope for our salvation. Since we don't know, we can't say we are predestined or not only that God is the only one who knows. In other words, He knows who will make a free choice to believe in Him and those who will not.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I think the idea of Calvinism is that God knows who will be saved; but, His knowing doesn't mean we can't be saved we just don't know we are.

What bothers me is that people think they know they are saved or predestined when only God knows these things, we can only hope for our salvation. Since we don't know, we can't say we are predestined or not only that God is the only one who knows. In other words, He knows who will make a free choice to believe in Him and those who will not.

That isn't what Calvinism is. Arminianism on the other hand would agree with you, that God has foreknowledge of our free choices.

Calvinism however asserts that none of us choose God, we prefer our own selfish motives and sin. So God isn't simply knowing but He chooses who will be saved, imparting His grace so those individuals can turn to Him and believe and trust in Jesus as Lord.

If we accept Jesus as Lord and believe in what He has done and who He is and have repented from our sin we can be confident we are among God's elect. There won't be people who are trying to come to Christ but cannot because God hasn't chosen them. All who the Father gives shall come. (John 6:37) The rest will prefer their own selfish ways and rebel against Him.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thank you for the clarification. Can I ask, in a Calvinistic view, God chooses who will be saved, our asking for salvation would be null because we wouldn't know if we are saved even though we asked. We can only assume that we are the elect; however, who is it for a Christian to say for sure they are.

That isn't what Calvinism is. Arminianism on the other hand would agree with you, that God has foreknowledge of our free choices.

Calvinism however asserts that none of us choose God, we prefer our own selfish motives and sin. So God isn't simply knowing but He chooses who will be saved, imparting His grace so those individuals can turn to Him and believe and trust in Jesus as Lord.

If we accept Jesus as Lord and believe in what He has done and who He is and have repented from our sin we can be confident we are among God's elect. There won't be people who are trying to come to Christ but cannot because God hasn't chosen them. All who the Father gives shall come. (John 6:37) The rest will prefer their own selfish ways and rebel against Him.

 

[Kolibri]

After catching up with the comments I was reminding of another passage of scripture that bears weight on God's choosing.

"And I will shake all the nations, and the precious (or "desirable.") things of all the nations will come in; and I will fill this house with glory, says Jehovah of armies." - Hosea 2:7

that sounds like a lot of work to break lose and free any person that proves to be precious in his eyes.

also this came to mind:

"Jehovah is no slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. But Jehovah's day will come...." - 2 Peter 3:9,10a

how can he predestine individual salvation and still "not desire anyone to be destroyed"?
Rather the choice is ours as to how we will respond to his discipline. (Proverbs 15:5)

 

[muhammad_isa]

Calvinism however asserts that none of us choose God, we prefer our own selfish motives and sin. So God isn't simply knowing but He chooses who will be saved, imparting His grace so those individuals can turn to Him and believe and trust in Jesus as Lord...

It's a bit deep .. Almighty God knows what is in our hearts ie. our intentions
Nobody is 'saved' without God's Mercy.

The crux of the matter, as I was saying, is a misunderstanding about what 'predetermination' really means ..

 

[Spiderman]

Then you don't understand Calvinism. You cannot like it no more than you can grow wings and fly, because you have not been predestined to the grace required to accept the Gospel.

Are you saying that is what you believed or are you mocking the Calvinist belief in that statement?

 

[Spiderman]

Charles Spurgeon once said that "Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven."

I will address some misunderstandings of Calvinist doctrine that are in your post which will hopefully clear some things up. You may very well continue to find Calvinism repugnant, but I hope not as repugnant as you did before.

Firstly, Calvinists do not believe people go to Hell through no choice of their own. Those who subscribe to double predestination (not all Calvinists do) will indeed say that God has predestined some to be vessels of wrath. However, this does not remove their responsibility or their choice. Everyone is born corrupted by sin, God may only choose some to be saved and redeemed, but those who are not redeemed still choose every sin, they still choose to be in rebellion to God. They are not forced to rebel against God but by their actions and rebellion all will sin and fall short. If God chose to save no one, it would be perfectly just, for all of us deserve Hell. That God saves any is merciful.

So all humans are still responsible for their actions. That God chooses to not save all does not remove the guilt of those who have chosen to rebel against Him. By making some to be vessels of wrath, God is not forcing them but allowing them to continue in their natural sinful ways and face the consequences of their own choices against Him.

The beauty of Calvinism is that God's glory will win in the end, and man's will cannot frustrate the plan of God. As it says in Romans 9 perhaps God has endured vessels of wrath in order "to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy". The beauty is that the elect had no part in their salvation, we are struck in awe by the grace and mercy of God who died for us, and saved us through no effort or merit of our own, and we did not deserve it. God is totally in control, and all things will work out for the good of those who love Him. The full display of God's grace, holiness, justice, wrath, love and mercy is God's glory, and when it is fully displayed we can know God to the fullest and love God to the fullest.

Im not sure how my idea of Calvanism is all that off if off at all. Yes, I know sinners choose to sin. But the desire to sin is not their choice. For instance, if there is a beautiful female that wants to fornicate with me and I even more passionately want to do the same, the desire to do that is out of my control. And I know myself all to well that if she is consenting, the fear of going to hell is not going to be victorious over my eagerness to satiate such a strong and natural human desire, and I'll fall into the sin. Whether or not I do it is in my control however, but the desire to do it is just natural and has nothing to do with choice.

I know this very much because for a six year period of my life I wanted to be a chaste ascetic and have purged all concupiscent desires so as to be pure and desire God alone. No matter how much prayer, effort, or fasting I did, there was no possible way I could make the strong desire to commit sins of the flesh go away.

Also, something like sexual perversion or homosexuality is not a choice either. You could not choose to be a homosexual anymore than you can choose to be a heterosexual. The choice is whether or not you want to act out on what you are naturally disposed to.

The problem is, we look at homosexuals, or sex addicts, perverts, gambling addicts, sociopaths, alcoholics, or drug addicts as if it is a choice! No! It is not a choice! An alcoholic can choose whether or not they take that first drink, but they don't get to choose whether or not they are an alcoholic.

I would know because I am one lol. And with all my heart I desired to be free of that and ALL addictions and prayed and fasted incessantly for years that I would be.

Also, you didn't make calvanism any more repulsive to me. Either way, some people are created with no possibility of salvation. Isn't that correct?

If so...that could have been you! That could be your son, your daughter, your father, your mother, your friend, or your spouse. A person who has no chance of salvation! To me that is disgusting and my heart breaks for those poor people that they ever had to be born in the first place!

 

[Spiderman]

Moreover, if God has predetermined who will be saved, why is the Bible full of choices to obey God in the Garden (Genesis 3:12 f.), to obey Moses in the Wilderness (Exodus 32:26), to serve God under Joshua (24:15), all the way to John the Baptist’s call to repent, and Jesus’ further call to believe the Gospel, and Paul’s declaration, “whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10), and Jesus’ command to “preach the Gospel to every creature”?

and the command to care for the sick, feed the hungry...