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Calvanism leaves me feeling ill

atpollard

Active Member
Here's my source. God doesn't want everyone to be saved, otherwise He would offer "special pardons", as you put it, to ALL, not just "some". The Calvinist view of a Limited Atonement is in no way Scriptural, and very sad to think about. John Calvin was a lawyer, not a theologian, and his cold legalism spills all over into his view of a careless, aloof God.
First, thank you for a real answer rather than just offering a short talking point.

And God only chooses to save some, arbitrarily, without care for anyone else.
(Re: 'arbitrarily')
I actually have no idea.
I honestly do not know what criteria God uses to choose one and not another.
The only thing that I can offer is strictly from MY personal experience ... it does not seem to be based on any innate merit to be found in ME.
I would not have chosen me as one worthy to be saved, there were so many who needed far less 'cleaning up' than I did.
Thus I am left with the curious and not particularly intellectually satisfying answer of 'for reasons known only to God.'
I guess saving me somehow makes sense to God.
[To which I can only respond with deep gratitude.]

From Chapter 21, Book III of John Calvin's Institutes of Christian Religion:

But if it is plainly owing to the mere pleasure of God that salvation is spontaneously offered to some, while others have no access to it, great and difficult questions immediately arise, questions which are inexplicable, when just views are not entertained concerning election and predestination. To many this seems a perplexing subject, because they deem it most incongruous that of the great body of mankind some should be predestinated to salvation, and others to destruction. How ceaselessly they entangle themselves will appear as we proceed. We may add, that in the very obscurity which deters them, we may see not only the utility of this doctrine, but also its most pleasant fruits. We shall never feel persuaded as we ought that our salvation flows from the free mercy of God as its fountain, until we are made acquainted with his eternal election, the grace of God being illustrated by the contrast--viz. that he does not adopt all promiscuously to the hope of salvation, but gives to some what he denies to others.
...
5. The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny; but it is greatly caviled at, especially by those who make prescience its cause. . . . By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.​

Straight from the horse's mouth. This is not a God that so loved the world. This is not a God that is Love. This is not a God Who desires that all be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. No, this is a God that plays a cosmic lottery with our souls without care for us. John Calvin speaks of God's grace, but there is no grace in this teaching, only capriciousness.
If you would indulge me with a follow on question just for clarification:
Do you believe that any soul that God created will be lost (damned)?
I am just trying to understand if it is damnation that you find lacking in love or God's selection method (as described by Calvin), so I know how to respond (If I have a response).
 

atpollard

Active Member
So if God is not responsible for our downfalls then that means that we are. What this tells me is that salvation is a personal decision made by every man. It tells me that grace is resistible. Judas had a choice whether or not to betray Jesus. To say he didn't makes God the cause of sin, which we know he cannot make anybody sin nor does he tempt anyone. (James 1:13) Let me ask when God lead the nation of Israel out of Egypt does God ever say that he will make them prosperous without their actions lining up with what he wants from them? He always says that their actions must add up and then as a result he will bless them. Look through the Torah and tell me if it says that the nation of Israel is blessed by God while they are in sin. God says time and again that if they disobey they will have to pay for it, that isn't what God intended for them. (Deuteronomy 30:17-18)
In your opinion, was Israel capable of keeping the Law?
Was obedience to the law possible?

Romans seems to say no.
What do you say?
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
Straight from the horse's mouth. This is not a God that so loved the world. This is not a God that is Love. This is not a God Who desires that all be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. No, this is a God that plays a cosmic lottery with our souls without care for us. John Calvin speaks of God's grace, but there is no grace in this teaching, only capriciousness.
Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

The keyword here is, “BELIEVES”. Do you think God will reject those people who would believe in His only begotten Son? NO!
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
And God only chooses to save some, arbitrarily, without care for anyone else.
These verses are very clear that God did not choose “arbitrarily” those will be saved and those who will be condemned.

Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
Here's my source. God doesn't want everyone to be saved, otherwise He would offer "special pardons", as you put it, to ALL, not just "some".
No one deserves to be saved at all. “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. God could have wiped off the entire humanity if HE wants to, but for the sake of the elect, He did not. Read The Potter and the Clay in Jeremiah 18.

You need to understand these verses to understand Calvinism.

EPH 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
EPH 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

RO 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
RO 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Predestination is in the bible.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
First, thank you for a real answer rather than just offering a short talking point.

(Re: 'arbitrarily')
I actually have no idea.
I honestly do not know what criteria God uses to choose one and not another.
The only thing that I can offer is strictly from MY personal experience ... it does not seem to be based on any innate merit to be found in ME.
I would not have chosen me as one worthy to be saved, there were so many who needed far less 'cleaning up' than I did.
Thus I am left with the curious and not particularly intellectually satisfying answer of 'for reasons known only to God.'
I guess saving me somehow makes sense to God.
[To which I can only respond with deep gratitude.]
I appreciate your honesty and sincerity.

If you would indulge me with a follow on question just for clarification:
Do you believe that any soul that God created will be lost (damned)?
I am just trying to understand if it is damnation that you find lacking in love or God's selection method (as described by Calvin), so I know how to respond (If I have a response).
It is possible, and likely, but it is impossible that God created any soul for the purpose of sentencing it to damnation--the eternal fires were prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41), not for mankind.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

The keyword here is, “BELIEVES”. Do you think God will reject those people who would believe in His only begotten Son? NO!
Of course not. And all of us have the ability to believe. We are all made in the image and likeness of God, which means that we are all able to choose to believe.

These verses are very clear that God did not choose “arbitrarily” those will be saved and those who will be condemned.

Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
To save the world. Not just some people. Everyone. It is God's will that all be saved (1 Timothy 2:4). Whether we are all saved or not is up to us.

I know a guy who is a bus driver and at the same time a preacher.
Yes, but I'm willing to bet this guy didn't completely make up an entire system of theology revolving around bus driving while ignoring everything else that had ever been said about God. John Calvin threw out 1500 years of theology in favor of describing God as a cold, heartless courtroom judge who created some of us for destruction just because He can. John Calvin stripped God of all love and compassion.

No one deserves to be saved at all. “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. God could have wiped off the entire humanity if HE wants to, but for the sake of the elect, He did not. Read The Potter and the Clay in Jeremiah 18.
Yes, this pertains to how God responds to us, shaping our destiny according to what we do.

4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. 11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: ‘Thus says the Lord, Behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.’​

People like to quote Romans 9:21 in support of Calvin's strange doctrine: "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" This makes it seem as if God does in fact predestine us to either damnation or salvation. However, this is not the case--we see the same idea of honorable and dishonorable vessels in II Timothy, chapter 2:

20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. 21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

22 So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

God fashions us all as vessels, yes, but it is not God who makes us dishonorable--we make ourselves honorable or dishonorable based on our own free choices and actions. If we choose to do God's will, then we will become vessels of honor. If, however, we decide to follow sinful passions and become ensnared by the devil, we will become vessels of dishonor. The potter makes the pots--it is up to those who buy the pots whether the pots are used for honorable or dishonorable things.

You need to understand these verses to understand Calvinism.

EPH 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
EPH 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

RO 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
RO 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Predestination is in the bible.
Predestination is in the Bible, yes. But God predestines all of us to salvation, and His grace of salvation is available to all (Titus 2:11). Many (i.e. all) are called, but few are chosen, because few choose to answer the call.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
Of course not. And all of us have the ability to believe. We are all made in the image and likeness of God, which means that we are all able to choose to believe.
But how about those who don’t believe? In this forum alone there are hundreds, if not thousands, who do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
To savethe world. Not just some people.Everyone. It is God's will thatallbe saved (1 Timothy 2:4). Whether we are all saved or not is up to us.
Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ came to save the sinners, that is, all of us, but not all of them believe in HIM to be saved. One needs just to believe in Him to be saved. The saved are predestined to be with God, and the unsaved are predestined to be with satan.
 

Theweirdtophat

Well-Known Member
Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ came to save the sinners, that is, all of us, but not all of them believe in HIM to be saved. One needs just to believe in Him to be saved. The saved are predestined to be with God, and the unsaved are predestined to be with satan.


Simply acknowledging that Jesus is the Son of God and came to save us is not necessary to go to Heaven. You can believe in him all you want but it means nothing if you're still doing bad things. You don't have to believe in him but you should believe what he stood for which was peace and goodwill.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
Yes, but I'm willing to bet this guy didn't completely make up an entire system of theology revolving around bus driving while ignoring everything else that had ever been said about God. John Calvin threw out 1500 years of theology in favor of describing God as a cold, heartless courtroom judge who created some of us for destruction just because He can. John Calvin stripped God of all love and compassion.
You need to understand that not all people will be saved, because many of them will not accept or believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

You said that “God created some of us for destruction just because He can” but HE also created some of us to be with Him in heaven, for the simple reason that He created every one of us. If a man is doomed to destruction [John 17:12], does this mean God did not create this man? Of course He did, because He created everyone. You need to understand that those who will not believe in HIM will be doomed to destruction and those who will believe to eternal life with HIM.

There are always two sides to a story and here we have one in heaven with God and one in hell with satan. John Calvin saw the two sides of the destiny of humanity and there is nothing wrong with that.

If you study the meaning of TULIP you would probably end up with a 3 to 4 points to start with. I found out, late in my Christian life, that my belief is in agreement with most of the points -4.5 to 5- of Calvinism, but it did not influence me in the beginning.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
Simply acknowledging that Jesus is the Son of God and came to save us is not necessary to go to Heaven. You can believe in him all you want but it means nothing if you're still doing bad things. You don't have to believe in him but you should believe what he stood for which was peace and goodwill.
I based my belief and arguments from the bible.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
People like to quote Romans 9:21 in support of Calvin's strange doctrine: "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?"

This makes it seem as if God does in fact predestine us to either damnation or salvation.
God does not give account to no one, but He did not choose “arbitrarily” those will be saved and those who will be condemned. If you read verses 22-24 it says, “God has every right to exercise His judgment” but He did not. God waited patiently so He can “pour out the riches of his glory upon those he prepared to be the objects of his mercy— even upon us, whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.”

What if God destroyed the ancestors, who were not Christians, of the Christians today? He did not but waited patiently because of the Christians today.

What if God destroyed the Israelites in Exodus 32:10? He did not but waited patiently because “who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.” –Romans 9:4-5

God could have destroyed everything and start a new one easily and gives account to no one, but He did not, instead HE waited patiently just for the sake of the elect.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
However, this is not the case--we see the same idea of honorable and dishonorable vessels in II Timothy, chapter 2:


20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. 21Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

22 So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses andescape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.


God fashions us all as vessels, yes, but it is not God who makes us dishonorable--we make ourselves honorable or dishonorable based on our own free choices and actions.

If we choose to do God's will, then we will become vessels of honor. If, however, we decide to follow sinful passions and become ensnared by the devil, we will become vessels of dishonor. The potter makes the pots--it is up to those who buy the pots whether the pots are used for honorable or dishonorable things.
If you read the verses before these verses you will understand that it is about false teachings.

2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
Predestination is in the Bible, yes. But God predestines all of us to salvation, and His grace of salvation is available to all (Titus 2:11). Many (i.e. all) are called, but few are chosen, because few choose to answer the call.
John 3:16-18 is very clear that NOT all will be saved.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
But how about those who don’t believe? In this forum alone there are hundreds, if not thousands, who do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
That is their own decision, and God will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy.
Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ came to save the sinners, that is, all of us, but not all of them believe in HIM to be saved. One needs just to believe in Him to be saved. The saved are predestined to be with God, and the unsaved are predestined to be with satan.
We are pre-ordained by God to be saved, for it is His will that we all be saved. Human choice forms predestination--while we are sinners, we are predestined to Hell, yet if we repent and turn to God, then we are predestined for Heaven.

You need to understand that not all people will be saved, because many of them will not accept or believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

You said that “God created some of us for destruction just because He can” but HE also created some of us to be with Him in heaven, for the simple reason that He created every one of us. If a man is doomed to destruction [John 17:12], does this mean God did not create this man? Of course He did, because He created everyone. You need to understand that those who will not believe in HIM will be doomed to destruction and those who will believe to eternal life with HIM.
Yet God did not create them with the plan in mind that they would not believe and be sent to Hell. God created us with the capacity to choose to love Him, and left it up to us to decide whether we would or not.

There are always two sides to a story and here we have one in heaven with God and one in hell with satan. John Calvin saw the two sides of the destiny of humanity and there is nothing wrong with that.
John Calvin also said that God created millions and millions of people for the sole purpose of sending them to Hell, a monstrous and repudiable belief.

If you study the meaning of TULIP you would probably end up with a 3 to 4 points to start with. I found out, late in my Christian life, that my belief is in agreement with most of the points -4.5 to 5- of Calvinism, but it did not influence me in the beginning.
I firmly reject Calvinism. Humanity is not totally depraved, we are made in the image of God, and that means we are capable of growing in virtue, love and holiness, and that we have free will. People are not arbitrarily chosen by God to believe and receive Heaven or disbelieve and receive Hell, but rather God gives to us based upon what He knows we will do--if He foresees our righteousness, He grants us Heaven. If He sees our unrighteousness we receive Hell, but if we are first unrighteous and then repent, so God changes His predestination for us and instead grants us Heaven. Think of the case of King Hezekiah, how the Lord says he will soon die. King Hezekiah repents and weeps bitterly, and God tells him that he will not soon die, but will instead live for years to come because of his repentance.

God's atonement is not limited, but limitless, extending to everyone and to the entire world. Christ did not die for some, but for all. The only thing is that not all will accept, yet this doesn't mean that Christ died only for believers.

Grace is certainly resistible; anyone who has ever felt God's help coming to them in a time of temptation, admonishing them and urging them to the righteous course of action, but continued on with the sin anyway, knows this for themselves. We have free will, and not even God can violate that, as much as we sometimes wish He could. Salvation requires our un-coerced response. We can cooperate with God for our salvation, or reject it. It is not the case, as Luther falsely stated, that we can only choose to reject God's salvation, and cannot choose to embrace it. This idea goes back to the false doctrine of total depravity.

Once Saved Always Saved, or Perseverance of the Saints, is also demonstrably false; the only way to justify this doctrine is to constantly employ the No True Scotsman fallacy every time someone falls away from the faith or commits a sin. We know also from Scripture that this point is false, because of Hebrews 6:4-6.

If you read the verses before these verses you will understand that it is about false teachings.

2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
This doesn't change the validity of my point one bit.

John 3:16-18 is very clear that NOT all will be saved.
Perhaps so, but this doesn't mean that God created us to be sent to Hell, as Calvanism teaches.[/QUOTE]
 

atpollard

Active Member
I firmly reject Calvinism. Humanity is not totally depraved, we are made in the image of God, and that means we are capable of growing in virtue, love and holiness, and that we have free will. People are not arbitrarily chosen by God to believe and receive Heaven or disbelieve and receive Hell, but rather God gives to us based upon what He knows we will do--if He foresees our righteousness, He grants us Heaven.
I can understand and even accept this view of 'predestination' as a logical possibility.
In my opinion, "Total Depravity" is the key to whether Calvin or Arminius was more correct.
First, it is necessary to correctly define 'Total Depravity' (let's at least hate Calvin for what he actually taught).
Total Depravity means that EVERY PART of a person is corrupted by sin ... our body craves things not of God, our mind has thoughts not of God, our soul naturally seeks to hide from God (as Adam and Eve hid in the garden).
Total Depravity does not mean that every person is as bad as they can possibly be ... 'Total' is the width of our depravity, not its depth.

Calvin (and I) believe that people are free to choose to follow God's law, but too sin filled to actually do it.
Thus Faith and Repentance are offered to ALL and obtainable by NONE (speaking in terms of our own human efforts).

Arminius (and you) believe that people cannot be perfect, but are capable of achieving both a measure of Faith and a measure of Repentance (based on our human efforts).
Thus Faith and Repentance are offered to ALL and obtainable by SOME (speaking in terms of our own human efforts).

If you and Arminius are correct, then 'predestination' is the knowledge by God of how things will end and directing his efforts towards those who will choose to say 'Yes'.
If Calvin and I are correct, then the problem with your view is that NOBODY will choose to say yes (under human power) and nobody will be predestined to salvation ... this requires some initial action by God to lend us the initial Faith and Repentance to say 'Yes' and take that first step ... at which point we are now the sort of people that You and Arminius believe us to be ... a people who can choose to follow God.
 

atpollard

Active Member
Perhaps so, but this doesn't mean that God created us to be sent to Hell, as Calvinism teaches.
As a practical, logical argument ... even if you are 100% correct that everyone makes a choice and lives with the consequence of that choice ...

Can God ...
  • create two beings with eternal souls
  • KNOW (omniscience) that both will sin
  • KNOW that one will ultimately ask for forgiveness before death
  • KNOW the other will cry out (after death) "Lord, did we not do good things in your name." ... only to hear "I never knew you."
  • PREDESTINE one to heaven and one to hell based on this foreknown decision.
... and then wash his hands of any claim that God created some for blessing and some for destruction?

I am honestly not convinced that even your view of salvation does not deserve your outrage over the claim that God created some souls to be destroyed.
If God had to make the first move in salvation (as Calvin teaches), then God created some souls that will end up in Hell.
If men make the first move and God responds (as you seem to believe), then God still created some souls that will end up in Hell.
 

atpollard

Active Member
Simply acknowledging that Jesus is the Son of God and came to save us is not necessary to go to Heaven. You can believe in him all you want but it means nothing if you're still doing bad things. You don't have to believe in him but you should believe what he stood for which was peace and goodwill.
You do realize that this is not what the Bible says ... especially Romans (which deals with lots of core Theology questions).
According to the Bible, if you are going to attempt to earn a place in heaven by your works ... the bar is set at perfection.
Even a single sin will disqualify you.
Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

On the other side of the coin, we are justified (had our sins forgiven) by faith.
Romans 3:21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith infn Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,fn through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Technically, you actually CAN do bad things and still go to heaven ... in fact, it is actually guaranteed.
Nobody is perfect ... either before trusting Jesus or after ... so we will continue to sin (fall short of God's perfect standard).
"Justification" means that God will not hold our sin against us ... Jesus took our punishment.
"Sanctification" means that the Holy Spirit will continue to change us from the inside after our decision to follow Jesus ... we will want to sin less and God will help us to actually do it (but 'sinning less' is not the same as 'not sinning at all') ... it also means that we will be able to do more good. Neither our Sin nor our Good changes our Justification (which is all about God's Love).
"Glorification" means that when we no longer need this mortal husk, when we die and open our eyes in heaven ... God will have finished the work in us ... we will be perfect, even as Christ is perfect.

That's the Salvation Offer:
  • Lean with all of your weight on Jesus to make things right between you and God
  • Jesus death covers the debt of all your sins (past, present and future).
  • The Holy Spirit will change you from the inside out over the remainder of your life.
  • You will arrive in Heaven perfected ... a work of God.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) it is a package deal ... no picking a-la-carte ... all or nothing.
 
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