metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Nothing unless one believes that prayer can perform miracles.
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Nothing unless one believes that prayer can perform miracles.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Can you explain that? I'm having trouble understanding it. You're saying, and please correct me if I am wrong, the prayer does nothing unless the person believes that prayer performs miracles....?? If I were sitting in a class and a teacher said that I know what my inner response would be. Which is-- What? Huh? What did the person mean? And probably at this point I'd say, oh well...
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
The Catholic Church teaches that miracles can happen, which I cannot categorically say is untrue. However, as a scientist, I need more evidence, which I believe is lacking.
First, that makes no claim of perfection, merely of utility.
Second, it doesn't apply to the NT, which didn't exist at that time. It applies only to the Tanakh.
And it seems relevant to point out that it doesn't form part of the Tanakh.
I haven't encountered a claim by a Jewish friend or Jewish author that the Tanakh is inspired by God, so it doesn't seem to be a standard claim. It's always been Christians who say it (and include the NT). Christianity appears to have parted company with Judaism by the end of the first century CE ─ you'll be aware of the antisemitic parts in the gospel of John.
Ephesians is in the NT. My point is that the Tanakh doesn't attribute a sin nature as such to every human. In particular sin is never mentioned in the Genesis Garden story, nor is there any Fall of Man there ─ in the bible (Tanakh and NT), that's unique to Paul.
Personally I'm incapable of sin, since I have no god to offend. But I've done things in my life that I've regretted ─ I dare say it's very difficult not to, since it's part of a very usual learning process.
It's good when we can agree!
I take it you're referring to Isaiah 7:14? That (in biblical Hebrew) refers to almah a young woman, not to a virgin as such. Unfortunately the writers of the Septuagint translated it into Greek as 'parthenos', virgin, but such an error sheds any chance that "virgin" might be scriptural. As well, the male foretold in Isaiah 7:14 is born and has finished being relevant by the end of Isaiah 8.
I don't see how Jesus could be held up as an example to humans if he never sinned. Moreover it seems to me that his violent assault on the money men at the Temple, who were lawfully going about their business, was sinful, and worse, irrelevant, since if Jesus wanted to change the rules of the Temple, his argument was with the Temple authorities, not with the people they'd authorized. And there are other episodes that don't reflect well on him ─ did he ever pay the owner of the Gaderene swine, for instance?
I think it's an important issue. Mark's Jesus was an ordinary Jew until adopted by God as [his] son. Mark's Jesus was also NOT descended from David and declared it was irrelevant. The Jesus of Matthew and the Jesus of Luke were born of a virgin BUT ALSO said to be descended from David, supported by two absurd and irreconcilable genealogies of Joseph, who in those stories was categorically NOT Jesus' father. The Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John, unlike the other three, pre-existed in heaven with God and created the material universe, just as the gnostic demiurge is said to have done, and came to earth in a manner never mentioned, but since both claim to be descended from David, presumably by entering (in spirit) the zygote of an unnamed Jewish couple at the moment of conception. Five Jesuses, three distinct recipes ─ and Mark's clearly the closest to being credible.
My own view is that attempts to reconcile the stories miss the point ─ they only produce a new version that disagrees with all the others one way or another. There were in fact many irreconcilable versions of Jesus out there. The situation is even worse with the six resurrection accounts in the NT (counting Paul's paragraph and the mention in Acts 1).
For Paul and for the author of John it seems to have been a significant influence, at least as far as Jesus' status is concerned.
Perhaps we can simply agree to differ.
ElishaElijah
Return
What would you call what Adam and Eve did in the Garden when they disobeyed the commandment of God and ate from the tree they weren’t supposed to eat from? What word would you use?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Oh ok. So the concept that the young girls saw a vision of Mary, was it, cannot be scientifically confirmed, right? I think I remember it is called the Virgin of Fatima. I know that some people
do claim miracles. Like at faith healing gatherings for one. I do not in the sense of visions for myself or anyone I know. (I'm kind of thankful for that ..but I look forward to the new heavens and new earth.) I do believe God answered my prayer to know Him. I certainly cannot say I know Him perfectly but I look forward to the "new heavens and new earth.". Thank you for your answer, I hope you have a good day.
That’s too broad of a statement. It would be more than simple utility as Jesus said “The words that I speak are spirit and life”.
But the NT is simply an revelation of the TaNaKh. It would apply since it merely is the revelation of the preaching of the TaNaKh. Additionally, you would be hard-pressed to hold on to that the Gospels and the Book of Revelation aren’t inspired
I disagree. Jesus is very much a part of the TaNaKh.
Maybe you should ask the Jewish contingency? I would venture to say that when it is written where God said, “Write this in a book” - it is quite inspired.
I think it does in multiple ways. The land that was cursed by which our bodies consists of. The sacrificing of lambs. The fact that Isaiah penned by order of God, “There is none righteous, no not one”. And many more. \
Remember, those who preached what is written in what we call the NT is what they preached from the Old Testament. Even Jesus said, “You must be born again”.
That is a matter of opinion. If you are married, tell your spouse that you never sinned and see if your spouse agreed with you. If you hold on to “there is no sin”, then murder is not a sin and we should go ahead and have at it.
Few and far between, but sweet when it happensYes, that is the common position. But “maiden” is always referred to as a “virgen maiden” There is a reason why the Jewish people translated it as “virgin” in the Septuagint. Remember that the Septuagint was written “before” Jesus was born and not after the fact.
I think you are missing history here. When you say “they were lawfully going about the business” you are forgetting that the location where they were “lawfully doing business” was in the court where the Gentiles were suppose to be at at it was being “unlawfully” used for other purposes. Not to mention “Den of thieves” doesn’t sound to lawful. Inflated extortion pricing? I don’t know… but something was off!
Jesus is the example. He is our goal. He was tempted like us but showed us how we can say “no” when we are born-again. He suffered like we suffer and felt and received all our pains. Quite an example.
I wouldn’t call the Messiah, ordinary. 100% man… yes. The Word in the flesh is a little more than ordinary.
What you call “absurd”, the Jewish people of that time said “spot on”!
I understand you can not agree… but your viewpoints doesn’t change the history and veracity that the people of those times understood and received.
I think this is an imagination at work
LOL - ANOTHER AGREEMENT! We are batting good!
I am wondering where is the verse that says Jesus is King of the Universe _______________
I read Jesus is King of -> God's Kingdom for one-thousand years - 1st Corinthians 15:24-26.
Jesus gives credit to his God as being the Creator - Revelation 4:11.
I can't find a verse that says God's holy spirit is a person _________________
Rather, I find that God's spirit (Psalm 104:30) is a genderless neuter "it" as found at Numbers 11:17,25 ( KJV )
Just as our spirit is also a neuter "it" as found at Ecclesiastes 12:7 B.
The resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to Revelation 3:12.
Back in the 1960's high school we were told that research showed dolphins talk about food, sex, and danger. (?)
ALL are souls ( both human and animal ) I find at Numbers 31:28 (KJV)
Who kept Adam and Eve in ignorance of right and wrong?
God did.
Who threatened Adam and Eve with death the same day if they ate the fruit?
God did.
Who told Adam and Eve that in fact they wouldn't die?
The Snake did.
When Eve ate the fruit, could she tell right from wrong?
No, she couldn't ─ God had prevented her.
When Adam ate the fruit, could he tell right from wrong?
No, he couldn't ─ God had prevented him.
Did Adam and Eve die the same day, as God said?
No, they didn't.
Did they instead continue to live, as the Snake said?
Yes, they did.
Is it a good thing or a bad thing for God to lie?
A bad thing. God should not be a deceiver.
Did God accuse Adam and/or Eve of sin?
No, [he] didn't. [He] never mentions sin at any point of the story. Nor does anyone else.
How many reasons did God offer for expelling Adam and Eve from the Garden?
One.
What was it?
Genesis 3:22: "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good from evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever ─" 23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden ...
Now, I ask you for your honest opinion ─ is it a good thing or a bad thing that humans can tell good from evil?
Should someone who brings to humanity the capacity to tell good from evil ─ even if it's only in a story ─ be condemned, punished, vilified? Or should they be applauded, praised, remembered as a hero or heroine?
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ElishaElijah
Return
”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.“
John 1:1-4 NKJV
”He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.“
Colossians 1:15-18 NKJV
”Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it. So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.” Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.” Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!” And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!” Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.“
Revelation 5:2-5, 8-14 NKJV
”Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.“
Revelation 19:11-16 NKJV
”Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.“
Philippians 2:5-11 NKJV
These scriptures show Jesus Christ as King of Kings, Creator, in Him all things consist, every knee bows and tongue confess He is Lord, only One Worthy in Heaven on earth or under the earth to take the scroll and open the seals.
ElishaElijah
Return
What word would you call it when Adam and Eve disobeyed God?
ElishaElijah
Return
”But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.“
John 14:26 NKJV
”However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.“
John 16:13 NKJV
There is no claim in the bible that the bible is inerrant. If there is a claim in the NT that it's beneficial to read the scriptures, that statement is confined to the Tanakh, since there was no NT when that claim was written.
The trouble with that is that no one of the Jewish faith would have any reason to think Jesus was a messiah. He was never a civil, military or religious leader of the Jewish nation, and never anointed by the Jewish priesthood ─ which as you know is what "messiah" means (as does its Greek equivalent "khristos").
Instead, no one in Jerusalem who mattered was likely to have heard of him before he arrived for passover at the end. The stories of cheering crowds are highly unlikely to be correct for that very reason. But of course once Jesus became part of oral tradition, there would of course be crowds, and the crowds would get bigger at each retelling. You'll have noticed how the Jesus of Mark's crucifixion scene is a sad and defeated figure; the Jesus of Matthew, written next, is much the same; the Jesus of Luke is more upbeat, doesn't ask why his god has forsaken him; and the Jesus of John is the cool, masterful MC of the proceedings. Oral transmission works like that, because of the human tendency for the narrator to leave out or amend the parts he doesn't like and to leave out or amend parts that might offend his hearer and sometimes to insert parts that he thinks might please or flatter his hearer. (Studies of oral transmission in Gaelic, Nordic, Slavic and other cultures all find these elements.)
Given there was an historical Jesus at all ─ I think there may have been ─ we have no eyewitness account of him, no contemporary mention of him, no independent direct mention of him. At best the speeches attributed to him are paraphrases of someone's memory of what he said. However, at worst they're what the author thinks he ought to have said ─ and in particular the author of Mark, who gives a very clear template for the authors of Matthew and of Luke, and a more blurry outline, but an outline nonetheless, for the author of John.
All I see is the gospel authors devising episodes based on parts of the Tanakh so that Jesus can "fulfill" them. Matthew's and Luke's "virgin" tale is an example, the inaccurate translation of Isaiah in the Septuagint. The author of Matthew invents the unhistoric 'Massacre of the Innocents' story ─ that was outrageous even by the standards of those days, but no one in history noticed it ─ to get Jesus into Egypt to “fulfill” Hosea 11.1.
The same author absurdly sits Jesus across a foal and a donkey to ride into Jerusalem "to fulfill prophecy" (Matthew 21:2-5) in Zechariah 9.9.
And so on.
It's more a question of the claim coming from within the book. Anyone can say that eg the Harry Potter books were written by an "inspired" Rowling.
My spouse was never in doubt as to what I did, for better or for worse (as it's put). But a wrong is only a "sin" if it offends a god, and that's not a problem I have.
Almah means "young woman of marriageable age" according to one of my books. There's a different word that denotes "virgin".
Don't forget that what Jesus did was pointless. His argument, if he really wanted to alter the practices of the Temple, was with the Temple authorities, not with the traders.
By God's deliberate arrangement they had no way of knowing that disobedience was wrong. They didn't even know what "wrong" meant." So the only way they could eat the fruit, or do anything else, was "innocently".
ElishaElijah
Return
”Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”“
Genesis 2:15-17 NKJV
Obviously they knew, and they knew the consequences .
The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit. How you translate that will vary person to person.
"If there is a claim in the NT that it's beneficial to read the scriptures, that statement is confined to the Tanakh, since there was no NT when that claim was written"
I’m not sure that holds. The Bible is a compilation of books that were written at different time periods spanning millenniums. Every book was written when other books weren’t written yet. To conclude that the New Testament is not inspired just because it happened after the TaNaKh is just a viewpoint.
I would disagree on the basis on what is written. For an example, the Book of Revelation is quite inspired.
Historically this statement has no foundation or substance. The belief that Jesus was the Messiah was started by Jewish people.
I would call this a fabrication if I go by the historical accounts written.
Again… I would call this a fabrication by virtue of what was written.
A personal viewpoint which you are free to have.
Again.. this remains your personal viewpoint since historical accounts written say otherwise.
That is true… but one could also say your answers are inspired by AI .
I disagree… Sin… by definition is “missing the mark”. Ask you spouse if you ever “missed the mark”.
No. the context is a maiden that is a virgin… look it up
Again… purely a viewpoint that is contradicted by the historical written accounts.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm beginning to think that because so many here that call themselves Christian believe in the theory of evolution it would be hard to get an answer about these things from certain ones. Maybe I'm wrong...so far I have not seen answers about these things from such ones. No insult intended, just truth about what I have seen.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Evidently the original scrolls or documents were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, in order for people who do not understand these languages, it is necessary to translate them.