By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

[ElishaElijah]

What was finished was his personal suicide mission, which he had foretold at eg Mark 2:20. The Kingdom was NOT established on earth, the Son of Man had NOT come to run the show. That "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23) comes from Paul's adoption of a trope apparently originating in the Jewish quarter in Alexandria, who around the end of the 2nd century BCE in the course of practicing midrash came up with the notion that Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden because they'd sinned. It was a tale seized on by Augustine of Hippo around 400 CE who made it popular, as I may have mentioned.

But you've read the Garden story in Genesis, so you already know that nowhere does it mention sin, the Fall of Man, death entering the world, spiritual death, or anything of the kind. Instead, as you'll also know, God states [his] only reasons for expelling them from the Garden in Genesis 3:22-3, namely to protect [his] own position. It will also have struck you that at the time Eve and Adam respectively ate the fruit, God had denied them knowledge of good and evil ─ hence it was impossible for them to form an intention to do wrong, hence impossible for them to sin.

And did I already mention Ezekiel 18:20, where it says very clearly that sin can't be inherited, hence the concept of original sin is not only non-biblical but by bible standards is nonsense anyway.

”Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.“
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬-‭21‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[blü 2]

”Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.“
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬-‭21‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Yes, that's the part that Paul borrowed from somewhere, which has no scriptural backing, as I spelt out for you.

And as well as there being absolutely zero mention of sin in the Garden story, if as Ezekiel 18:20 says, sin CAN'T be inherited then there can be no original sin ─ and neither the Tanakh nor as best I recall the gospels ever mentions such a thing ─ just Paul.

Don't take my word for it ─ read it for yourself.

 

[YoursTrue]

Not sure what you mean, do you have a Bible reference? I would encourage people to get right with God and settle that today. Pray for and with people till the last breath, after that it’s too late.

”For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.“
‭‭II Corinthians‬ ‭6‬:‭2‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

”And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,“
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9‬:‭27‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

I am speaking about the 'last rites' as said by some for dying Catholics, I suppose. Which I hear people say over the dying, not sure if it has to be a priest, just wondering about that.
But now I would like to ask your understanding of the following at James 3:6 - "And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell."

 

[YoursTrue]

Not sure what you mean, do you have a Bible reference? I would encourage people to get right with God and settle that today. Pray for and with people till the last breath, after that it’s too late.

”For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.“
‭‭II Corinthians‬ ‭6‬:‭2‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

”And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,“
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9‬:‭27‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

God is the Judge, of course. There is a judgment, that is true. And yes, the natural death is once, after that is the judgment. We can go into that. Because, of course, at first sight, the Bible does say that we are to be in fear of the one that destroys both body AND soul in Gehenna. (or hell in some Bibles.) Matthew 10:28 - "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

 

[blü 2]

God is the Judge, of course. There is a judgment, that is true. And yes, the natural death is once, after that is the judgment. We can go into that. Because, of course, at first sight, the Bible does say that we are to be in fear of the one that destroys both body AND soul in Gehenna. (or hell in some Bibles.) Matthew 10:28 - "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

The NT has various versions as to what happens after death.

Mark mentions ‘to go to hell [Gehenna], to the unquenchable fire’.

Matthew has Jesus speak of destroying ‘both soul and body in hell’ [Gehenna] ─ which would seem to mean death is the end ─ and of ‘the eternal fire’ and ‘the outer darkness’ ─ which would seem to be an alternative endless torment. That is, the author of Matthew comes across as confused on the point.

Revelation speaks of ‘the lake that burns with fire and sulphur’ but if I recall aright, puts devils but not sinners in it.

Paul and the authors of John and 1 John think the natural end is extinction eg Romans 6:9, John 3:16

Mark (perhaps metaphorically) and Revelation think the alternatives are the lake-of-fire sort of thing (torture unbelievers for eternity) or paradise.

So it's like scanning the shelves in your local supermarket, seeing which one or more products you'd like to buy.

 

[YoursTrue]

The NT has various versions as to what happens after death.

Mark mentions ‘to go to hell [Gehenna], to the unquenchable fire’.

Matthew has Jesus speak of destroying ‘both soul and body in hell’ [Gehenna] ─ which would seem to mean death is the end ─ and of ‘the eternal fire’ and ‘the outer darkness’ ─ which would seem to be an alternative endless torment. That is, the author of Matthew comes across as confused on the point.

Revelation speaks of ‘the lake that burns with fire and sulphur’ but if I recall aright, puts devils but not sinners in it.

Paul and the authors of John and 1 John think the natural end is extinction eg Romans 6:9, John 3:16

Mark (perhaps metaphorically) and Revelation think the alternatives are the lake-of-fire sort of thing (torture unbelievers for eternity) or paradise.

So it's like scanning the shelves in your local supermarket, seeing which one or more products you'd like to buy.

In a manner of speaking, people have their preferred brands I suppose. To elucidate, the eternal torment is not for conscious torment of unrepentant sinners and the devil and demons, but like the illustration of a garbage dump false ideas and attempts of the devil and his cohorts will be forever in the garbage dump. The devil, demons and unrepentant sinners and their harmful practices will be gone forever.

 

[blü 2]

In a manner of speaking, people have their preferred brands I suppose. To elucidate, the eternal torment is not for conscious torment of unrepentant sinners and the devil and demons, but like the illustration of a garbage dump false ideas and attempts of the devil and his cohorts will be forever in the garbage dump. The devil, demons and unrepentant sinners and their harmful practices will be gone forever.

Interesting take.

I've never seen the point of living forever. My life is meaningful when I feel purposeful, and humans have a built-in story arc for their lives, parts of which are optional. For instance infancy is a time of learning language, the external world, how to behave, social norms. This moves effortlessly into learning practical and contributive arts, like how to be tidy, to cook and wash up, to play sports, to get a job. Adolescence is about pairing thende to reproducing, when we become providers and teachers instead of pupil to infants; then we become grandparents and do grandparently things while the parents eg hold down jobs. Then it's game over and you're best out of the way.

So the idea of infinite idle time sounds entirely purposeless hence meaningless to me. And I don't think there's any way it could be possible.

 

[YoursTrue]

Interesting take.

I've never seen the point of living forever. My life is meaningful when I feel purposeful, and humans have a built-in story arc for their lives, parts of which are optional. For instance infancy is a time of learning language, the external world, how to behave, social norms. This moves effortlessly into learning practical and contributive arts, like how to be tidy, to cook and wash up, to play sports, to get a job. Adolescence is about pairing thende to reproducing, when we become providers and teachers instead of pupil to infants; then we become grandparents and do grandparently things while the parents eg hold down jobs. Then it's game over and you're best out of the way.

So the idea of infinite idle time sounds entirely purposeless hence meaningless to me. And I don't think there's any way it could be possible.

I'm going to say this as succinctly as possible. I don't want to die. I think that feeling is inborn. I know I may not be able to live forever at this point in time but I am promised eternal life on a beautiful earth in the Bible. It makes sense to me. Revelation 21:1-5 speaks of a new earth with no more death and suffering. Again...it makes sense to me. It won't be idle time. There is so much to do, to love and enjoy but we don't have time now to do all the things we like.

 

[blü 2]

I'm going to say this as succinctly as possible. I don't want to die. I think that feeling is inborn. I know I may not be able to live forever at this point in time but I am promised eternal life on a beautiful earth in the Bible. It makes sense to me. Revelation 21:1-5 speaks of a new earth with no more death and suffering. Again...it makes sense to me. It won't be idle time. There is so much to do, to love and enjoy but we don't have time now to do all the things we like.

Then may we each find our wishes granted. At least mine will rule out the possibility that I'll regret my choice.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Yes, that's the part that Paul borrowed from somewhere, which has no scriptural backing, as I spelt out for you.

I just gave you the Scripture and not sure what more scriptural backing you need. Paul got this from the Scriptures, from the Holy Spirit, from God.
Seems you're having an argument with yourself. But here again is the Scripture that speaks for itself:
”Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.“
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬-‭21‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[metis]

Again, that's ok that you won't comment. But then why are the last rites offered anyway if the ritual is not necessary?

It's prayer for the ill and is not just used at death.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Common sense and evidence.

Ever seen someone's personality change because of a brain injury?

I have! I have!

 

[SkepticThinker]

I would hold onto my position:

psychology (n.)

1650s, "the study of the soul," from Modern Latin psychologia, probably coined mid-16c. in Germany by Melanchthon from Latinized form of Greek psykhē "breath, spirit, soul" (see psyche) + logia "study of" (see -logy). The meaning "science or study of the phenomena of the mind" is attested by 1748, in reference to Christian Wolff's "Psychologia empirica" (1732). The modern behavioral sciences sense is from the early 1890s.

Yes… it includes the mind, will and emotions.

I have been studying psychology for more than a decade now. It is the study of the mind and behavour. Sorry, but that's what it is.
I haven't found a soul to even study in the first place, let alone assign all sorts of properties to it, as you've done here based on .... no evidence that you've presented anywhere.

yes, I agree with you that if the brain is damaged, it affects outcome. But let me say it this way...

No. If the brain is damaged, it can (and does) affect one's personality, cognition, perceptions, etc.

Babies are a good evidence… they don’t start with a “blank soul” and then develop it.

This is just a bare claim.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I would hold onto my position:

psychology (n.)

1650s, "the study of the soul," from Modern Latin psychologia, probably coined mid-16c. in Germany by Melanchthon from Latinized form of Greek psykhē "breath, spirit, soul" (see psyche) + logia "study of" (see -logy). The meaning "science or study of the phenomena of the mind" is attested by 1748, in reference to Christian Wolff's "Psychologia empirica" (1732). The modern behavioral sciences sense is from the early 1890s.

Yes… it includes the mind, will and emotions.

yes, I agree with you that if the brain is damaged, it affects outcome. But let me say it this way...

If your nerves in your back to your legs are damaged and you can never walk again, does that mean the brain doesn’t exist because it affected the nerve? Or the brain still exists but the nerves in the back have been affected. Likewise, if the brain is affected, it doesn’t mean the soul doesn’t exists, it means the nerve (so to speak) has been affected but the soul is still present and the same.

If your personality is affected by all sorts of physical things - brain injury, hormone levels, medications, fever, etc. - in what sense could we say that the seat of personality is non-physical?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Opinion… no empirical and verifiable evidence. Too complicated. Mine is much simpler.

Those were all demonstrable facts.

Ok… we will have to agree to disagree.

But you can't demonstrate that your disagreement is based on any known facts.

 

[SkepticThinker]

As I mentioned before, modernized changed meanings doesn’t change the reality of what it is.

There is absolutely no testing available to understand the conscience-when it is developed or how is it developed. Likewise, personality. We can see how it works but not how it comes about.

Actually, it is the correct use.

yes… there is much to learn and discover. Of course, I will have a spiritual perspective on it.

You really have a lot to learn about the brain.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have been studying psychology for more than a decade now. It is the study of the mind and behavour. Sorry, but that's what it is.
I haven't found a soul to even study in the first place, let alone assign all sorts of properties to it, as you've done here based on .... no evidence that you've presented anywhere.

I also studied psychology for a long time and I have an MA in psychology, but you won't find anything about the soul in a psychology curriculum, since the soul is within the purview of religion, not psychology.

No. If the brain is damaged, it can (and does) affect one's personality, cognition, perceptions, etc.

Yes, if the brain is damaged it can, and usually does, affect one's personality in various degrees. That happens because the soul is associated with the brain while we are alive in a physical body. However, after that person dies and no longer has a physical body and brain, the soul is no longer affected, so it returns to its previous state before the brain damage occurred..

“Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments. Consider the light of the lamp. Though an external object may interfere with its radiance, the light itself continueth to shine with undiminished power. In like manner, every malady afflicting the body of man is an impediment that preventeth the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When it leaveth the body, however, it will evince such ascendancy, and reveal such influence as no force on earth can equal. Every pure, every refined and sanctified soul will be endowed with tremendous power, and shall rejoice with exceeding gladness.” Gleanings, p. 153-154

The entire passage is on this link.
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, LXXX

 

[shunyadragon]

There are many original manuscripts that back up the Bible, but hey you can believe or not believe. That’s why there are believers and unbelievers.

 

[shunyadragon]

There are many original manuscripts that back up the Bible, but hey you can believe or not believe. That’s why there are believers and unbelievers.

There are no original manuscripts of any book of the Bible. The reason there are many diverse conflicting believers and non-believers is because of the subjective ambiguity of the Bible, but also the diverse and conflicting different scriptures of the world over the millennia.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Ok… obviously “show me a book” is an irrational request.

So let’s look at some info:

"But biocentrism — a new "theory of everything" — challenges this traditional, materialistic model of reality. In all directions, this outdated paradigm leads to insoluble enigmas, to ideas that are ultimately irrational. But knowledge is the prelude to wisdom, and soon our worldview will catch up with the facts."

Does the Soul Exist? Evidence Says ‘Yes’

New scientific theory recognizes life’s spiritual dimension.

www.psychologytoday.com

Obviously, there will be the anti-soul position… I’m sure we can agree that the answer isn’t solid in any of the two positions.

From the article, 'As I sit here in my office surrounded by piles of scientific books, I can't find a single reference to the soul, or any notion of an immaterial, eternal essence that occupies our being. Indeed, a soul has never been seen under an electron microscope, nor spun in the laboratory in a test tube or ultra-centrifuge. According to these books, nothing appears to survive the human body after death."


Thanks for demonstrating that souls aren't studied in psychology.