Biggest benefits of leaving a religion

[Terry Sampson]

Actually, it was not Jesus who said that, it was the Gospel writers who wrote that Jesus said that, writers who wrote about Jesus but never even knew Jesus.

Clever move. Congratulations! Irreconcilable difference #7,918 between Baha'i and me, thereby proving once again that Baha'i and I have no theology in common. You now join all the other Baha'i on my "Ignore" list. Feel free and welcome to continue to pander your über-supercessationalism to the naive and unaware.

The great joke is that you dare to affirm that prophecies in books you do not regard with any respect justify the false claims of your false Manifestation.

@CG Didymus

 

[Samael_Khan]

If the morality in a group serve the ego it is not a spiritual teaching
There are many spiritual teachings and the right answer would be, this teaching or path is the right one for me, but other teachings may hold the truth too.

Which is what I agree with.

I do understand the moral aspect of spiritual groups as well, but I don't think that true self improvement will result from being forced to obey the rules. One should be able to continuously ask questions and state grievances without any consequences because one can only believe once one truly understands.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Which is what I agree with.

I do understand the moral aspect of spiritual groups as well, but I don't think that true self improvement will result from being forced to obey the rules. One should be able to continuously ask questions and state grievances without any consequences because one can only believe once one truly understands.

Yes, to ask questions is a part of the path too, but one could come across teacher who keep silent og he/She think you should understand the answer your self
When you have a question it is most often the best to read the scripture more because all the answer we need may within the teaching

 

[Samael_Khan]

Yes, to ask questions is a part of the path too, but one could come across teacher who keep silent og he/She think you should understand the answer your self
When you have a question it is most often the best to read the scripture more because all the answer we need may within the teaching

What happens if you read the teaching and the answer you get is different from theirs?

 

[Spirit of Light]

What happens if you read the teaching and the answer you get is different from theirs?

It means that my inner wisdom has not reached their level more to study. But this is a part of the Cultivation you start without wisdom, and the more one read the teaching the more wisdom open up to us. And our understanding of the teaching become more and more pure. But there is also the part of changes we must do to our self, we can not stay as immoral person with all our previoues faults and ignorance to the truth. Always try to better our self to become the way the teaching say. Meaning take away all our bad habits, and strive to only do good (not the kind of feel good as the ego want is to do.)

 

[Samael_Khan]

It means that my inner wisdom has not reached their level more to study. But this is a part of the Cultivation you start without wisdom, and the more one read the teaching the more wisdom open up to us. And our understanding of the teaching become more and more pure. But there is also the part of changes we must do to our self, we can not stay as immoral person with all our previoues faults and ignorance to the truth. Always try to better our self to become the way the teaching say. Meaning take away all our bad habits, and strive to only do good (not the kind of feel good as the ego want is to do.)

What do you mean by "their level"? How do they demonstrate that they have inner wisdom beyond yours?

And is the goal to be selfless?

 

[Spirit of Light]

What do you mean by "their level"? How do they demonstrate that they have inner wisdom beyond yours?

And is the goal to be selfless?

They have realized enlightenment, a student has not
If you look at Jesus, Buddha, my teacher Li Hongzhi, all of them realize enlightenment and become enlightened beings

My understanding is that Selfless is a part of the journey yes, it happens when realizing that we are not human beings in original but spiritual being who has fallen in enlightenment and ended up in human realm

 

[Samael_Khan]

They have realized enlightenment, a student has not
If you look at Jesus, Buddha, my teacher Li Hongzhi, all of them realize enlightenment and become enlightened beings

My understanding is that Selfless is a part of the journey yes, it happens when realizing that we are not human beings in original but spiritual being who has fallen in enlightenment and ended up in human realm

I must think about that. It requires quite a bit of thought to determine whether Jesus, Buddha and Li Hongzhi are enlightened or not.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I must think about that. It requires quite a bit of thought to determine whether Jesus, Buddha and Li Hongzhi are enlightened or not.

First one must understand what it means to be enlighten

 

[Samael_Khan]

First one must understand what it means to be enlighten

YES!!! I was thinking the same thing!

What does it mean?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't disagree that there aren't metaphors but there are certainly parts which are not metaphor. So you would have to choose a part which we agree are not metaphor and you don't to sort out the contention.

John 14:20 makes sense literally if one believes in the Trinity. To me it doesn't seem like a metaphor but another figure of speech which I cannot remember at the moment.

It makes sense to me, but not in a doctrine called the Trinity.

Regards Tony

 

[Samael_Khan]

It makes sense to me, but not in a doctrine called the Trinity.

Regards Tony

Depends on your frame of reference. It occurs to me that those who believe in the Trinity are reading the book from a different perspective than the rest.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Depends on your frame of reference. It occurs to me that those who believe in the Trinity are reading the book from a different perspective than the rest.

Correct. I also see that being able to change our frames of reference, is a tool to greater understandings.

Regards Tony

 

[Samael_Khan]

Correct. I also see that being able to change our frames of reference, is a tool to greater understandings.

Regards Tony

Exactly! I think that many religious people who choose sides cannot see the other sides frame of reference. For instance, the way I see it, both the Trinitarian and Unitarian view can be valid depending on their frame of reference. The problem with groups that I am referring to in the OP is that they don't understand or cannot accept that others have a different frame of reference therefore they say they are right and others are wrong. I actually think that not understanding another's frame of reference is one major reason behind all the conflict in the world.

I think this holds true to why many Christians and myself cannot understand the Baha'i interpretation of the bible because we have different frames of reference to you.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Actually, it was not Jesus who said that, it was the Gospel writers who wrote that Jesus said that, writers who wrote about Jesus but never even knew Jesus.

I do think though that the foundation of the idea of Jesus is in the gospels. Therefore we would say that it is most likely that they give the more accurate depiction of Jesus as opposed to religions who came a hundred or more years afterwards. So it is most likely that Jesus said these words, though not conclusive. So we would hold the gospels as more credible.

 

[Vinayaka]

I know about a few of those support groups.

What I find interesting is that many of those who have left various religions throughout the world and are unrelated have similar experiences to what I mentioned in the OP. To me that says something about the psychological effect of certain types of religions that shows a predictable pattern.

Yes that's very true. Many have a newfound sense of freedom. But there is also something I didn't mention before. Some exes are just holding a grudge, and that grudge may be more negative than the religion was. In those cases it's healthier for the individual to move on. And not all personal stories are uplifting, some are incredibly sad.

You hit the nail on the head though with support group. that's the main reason, much like AA is.

 

[Vinayaka]

Personally, i do not see any benefit of leaving a spiritual life behind, it would only create confusion and lose of ability for Inner wisdom.

Most people who leave a religion aren't leaving a spiritual life, but gaining a spiritual life. If the so called religion was spiritual, it wouldn't have caused the person to leave it. So much insight is gained by watching from a distance.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Most people who leave a religion aren't leaving a spiritual life, but gaining a spiritual life. If the so called religion was spiritual, it wouldn't have caused the person to leave it. So much insight is gained by watching from a distance.

I know that religion today are often driven by governments rules, and that is bad, but yes as long they keep living a spiritual life, according to the teaching that is good

 

[Samael_Khan]

Yes that's very true. Many have a newfound sense of freedom. But there is also something I didn't mention before. Some exes are just holding a grudge, and that grudge may be more negative than the religion was. In those cases it's healthier for the individual to move on. And not all personal stories are uplifting, some are incredibly sad.

You hit the nail on the head though with support group. that's the main reason, much like AA is.

I have come across those exes holding a grudge. It isn't a pretty sight and they tend to be like poison as their mind is still connected to the group to an extent. To me they pretty much become indoctrinated to be against the group as they also think of the group in black and white terms.

For instance, with regards to the group I belonged in, ex members speculate a lot, accuse the members of stuff that there are more plausible reasons for, even say that the members are evil when in fact many of them are some of the nicest people many have come across. These guys try to find any tiny thing to make them suspicious of the group and rely on conspiracy theories to accuse the group of things without valid evidence. To me they have just traded one form of indoctrination for another, to the point that they can't even say anything nice about the group.

They are still trapped by the group, but I understand this, as listening to some peoples accounts, they haven been seriously emotionally scarred.

I have heard sad stories of people committing suicide because of shunning and children dying because the parents wouldn't allow them to get blood transfusions. The pedophile issue is also hard to listen to.

Religious forums is my support group

 

[Vinayaka]

I have come across those exes holding a grudge. It isn't a pretty sight and they tend to be like poison as their mind is still connected to the group to an extent. To me they pretty much become indoctrinated to be against the group as they also think of the group in black and white terms.

For instance, with regards to the group I belonged in, ex members speculate a lot, accuse the members of stuff that there are more plausible reasons for, even say that the members are evil when in fact many of them are some of the nicest people many have come across. These guys try to find any tiny thing to make them suspicious of the group and rely on conspiracy theories to accuse the group of things without valid evidence. To me they have just traded one form of indoctrination for another, to the point that they can't even say anything nice about the group.

They are still trapped by the group, but I understand this, as listening to some peoples accounts, they haven been seriously emotionally scarred.

I have heard sad stories of people committing suicide because of shunning and children dying because the parents wouldn't allow them to get blood transfusions. The pedophile issue is also hard to listen to.

Religious forums is my support group

It's sad how some people can hold a serious grudge for so long. Like you, I understand it, but it's still sad. There should be more rehabilitation programs to help people move on. Of course the ex-forums are skewed towards the folks who feel the need to speak about their experiences to somebody. Those who pack up and move on most likely wouldn't go to a forum.