Biblical prophecies and statements. Are they about Jesus Christ or Bahaullah?

[firedragon]

The NT also speaks about the man with the rod of iron.

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Revelation 2:27

And I will give him the morning star. 2:28.



And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:15


Seems Jesus speaks of another man.

Yes.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Again, that is a perfect explanation for a Baha'i. But who else are you going to convince? Where in Revelation does God make it clear that a Woe is a manifestation when every other trumpet blast prior to that signals bad things a comin'. Then it is more like God saying, "You ain't seen nothing yet. Woe, Woe, Woe for what is about to happen." And, in context, it's nothing but bad stuff.

If you want to make something a manifestation then why not try harder to show how the "Lamb" is really Baha'u'llah and not Jesus?

God does not make it clear anywhere in Bible, a woe means, a revelation. It made it clear later, a woe means a revelation.
Do you know what I mean by later? I mean, when the woes came, afterwards told us, what was its interpretation.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, what was the life of Adam, Noah, and Abraham? Nothing in the Bible story makes them into manifestations. Jews don't do it. Christians don't. I don't even think Islam does, does it? Yet, the Baha'i Faith makes Adam a manifestation and the beginning of his very own "cycle", the Adamic Cycle. At least the other two, Noah and Abraham, pretty much obeyed God their whole lives. But that doesn't make them manifestations.

This shows the importance of knowing the Quran.

The Quran states: "There is a Messenger for every community".

Listed by Islamic name and Biblical name.

• ʾĀdam (Adam)
• ʾIdrīs (Enoch)
• Nūḥ (Noah)
• Hūd (Eber)
• Ṣāliḥ
• ʾIbrāhīm (Abraham)
• Lūṭ (Lot)
• ʾIsmāʿīl (Ishmael)

I think about 25 Messengers are mentioned in the Quran as well as many other Names of God

Prophets and messengers in Islam - Wikipedia

Baha'u'llah mentions some of these in the writings as well.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And how do Baha'is explain that it is alluding to the proclamation of Muhammad?

We have no real way of knowing unless the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdu'lbaha or Shoghi Effendi recorded it.

There is a lot of writings and explanations given by people close to the Bab and Baha'u'llah to which many are yet to be translated. They will give us a lot of interesting thoughts as well, as they were close to the source. Some of them that are translated, give different insights into past Faiths.

Sometimes they were asked to defend the Faith in their writings, so we know they will contain useful information.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you want to make something a manifestation then why not try harder to show how the "Lamb" is really Baha'u'llah and not Jesus?

The Lamb was also Jesus the Christ, why would I want to dissprove that?

I see the Lamb talked about at the end of ages, for the Day of God, was the Bab, the Bab sacrafice His life and Cause so Baha'u'llah could be seen.

Why do people not look at the life and Message of the Bab, find out what was offered?

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

The Quran states: "There is a Messenger for every community".

True. But then, you believe that they were all manifestations of God. So there is a very wide division between the Quran and your theology.

If Quran is the word of God, do you think God would miss out on such an important aspect of the theology? In fact, the Quran vehemently says that none of them are divine, they were all mere human beings.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

True. But then, you believe that they were all manifestations of God. So there is a very wide division between the Quran and your theology.

If Quran is the word of God, do you think God would miss out on such an important aspect of the theology? In fact, the Quran vehemently says that none of them are divine, they were all mere human beings.

You would be aware that I do not beleive all are Manifestations of God. You have had that lengthy conversation a few times with @InvestigateTruth as to Station's of Messenger's

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

True. But then, you believe that they were all manifestations of God. So there is a very wide division between the Quran and your theology.

If Quran is the word of God, do you think God would miss out on such an important aspect of the theology? In fact, the Quran vehemently says that none of them are divine, they were all mere human beings.

Only those who revealed a new Book, and founded a Religion, are Manifestation of God. There are verses in Quran which allude to that. Only in Bahai revelation it was clearly stated, and that is because people in the past were not ready to be told.
The Person of Jesus is not divine. His physical body was not divine, and that is what the Quran rejects.

 

[firedragon]

You would be aware that I do not beleive all are Manifestations of God. You have had that lengthy conversation a few times with @InvestigateTruth as to Station's of Messenger's

Regards Tony

Tony. I apologise if I misrepresented your belief. And no, I never had this so called "lengthy conversation" about all the prophets being either manifestations or not.

Nevertheless, can you name who were manifestations?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony. I apologise if I misrepresented your belief. And no, I never had this so called "lengthy conversation" about all the prophets being either manifestations or not.

Nevertheless, can you name who were manifestations?

Thank you for that reply and as you would guess, the ones applicable to this age are the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

As to others, they can be found as stated in the Quran and the Baha'i Writings and the Bible. They are also the giver of a new revelation.

Other scriptures may also name some past Messengers, but I personally have not had to pursue who they may have been. It appears what they had offered back then, is not necessarily going to help with what the world needs now, without refreshing what they offered.

As such we can conclude that the Names of many Messengers and their Messages have been lost in History and the ones we can safely say are those Faiths that remain with a Following.

Noah, Abraham, Moses Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad are still apparent in this day, that they were a direct Revelation from God.

People that continue to write about what a Messenger offers, are not Mesengers, they are confirming the Message and get their inspiration from God via the Messenger, they do not get direct Revelation.

I see this all ties into our understanding of Spiritual Creation and relative Truth. Each level of spirit has a boundary, or we can say is contained, even the Holy Spirit.

The Most Great Spirit God is beyond containment, this is how I currently see it in visual form



If you have not read the provisional translation of the Tablet of the Universe by Abdul'baha, then I highly recommend it to be read.

It shows how many Manifestations do exist and the number has no limit.

Tablet of the Universe

If you read that, well, I leave it to you, as you also may be able to read the original. It gives an amazingly deep vision into creation, the most comprehensive given to date.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

If you read that, well, I leave it to you, as you also may be able to read the original. It gives an amazingly deep vision into creation, the most comprehensive given to date.

The original? You mean you have the original? I actually have the Kithab al aqdas and Kithab I iqan in its original form. Also some other documents in the original form. Well, they are beautiful really. Especially the Arabic Bayan.

But I would love to have "Tablet of the Universe". Honestly this is I think the first time I am hearing about it. And I will. Thank you very much. Please share.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The original? You mean you have the original? I actually have the Kithab al aqdas and Kithab I iqan in its original form. Also some other documents in the original form. Well, they are beautiful really. Especially the Arabic Bayan.

But I would love to have "Tablet of the Universe". Honestly this is I think the first time I am hearing about it. And I will. Thank you very much. Please share.

The English provisional translation link provided has more information as to the source

Unfortunately not easy to search for a document in a language one does not know.

Originally posted in Makátib-i 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Volume 1 (1997) in Persian.

I think I have traced a link to the original on this blog post.

Dear Abir,

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

The English provisional translation link provided has more information as to the source

Unfortunately not easy to search for a document in a language one does not know.

Originally posted in Makátib-i 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Volume 1 (1997) in Persian.

I think I have traced a link to the original on this blog post.

Dear Abir,

Regards Tony

Tony. Thank you very much for that. If you can download it, and share it in some way in this forum, I will be in debt to you.

Nevertheless, Persian is very different to Arabic. Just saying. Thanks a lot.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And how do Baha'is explain that it is alluding to the proclamation of Muhammad?

I can offer my thoughts.


"the daily sacrifice is abolished" =

Daily Sacrifice is an allusion to Jesus and His Revelation, and Rites that was established through the Revelation of Jesus.
As Jesus was sacrificed, metaphorically, this was the daily Sacrifice.

When Muhammad came, He brought a new Revelation which was to replace Laws of Gospel. In another words, By revelation of Quran, the previous Rites in Christianity was abolished. This is why "abolishing the daily sacrifice" means, Proclamation of Muhammad through which the previously established Rites was to be abolished.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Tony. Thank you very much for that. If you can download it, and share it in some way in this forum, I will be in debt to you.

Nevertheless, Persian is very different to Arabic. Just saying. Thanks a lot.

If you go to the link @Tony Bristow-Stagg sent, in there there is a Zip File.

http://reference.bahai.org/download/ma1-fa-pdf.zip


From this Zip, I was able to find a many Writings of Abdulbaha in Arabic.

Whether or not the Tablet of Universe is in there, I haven't checked.

 

[CG Didymus]

Only those who revealed a new Book, and founded a Religion, are Manifestation of God. There are verses in Quran which allude to that. Only in Bahai revelation it was clearly stated, and that is because people in the past were not ready to be told.
The Person of Jesus is not divine. His physical body was not divine, and that is what the Quran rejects.

And who are they that revealed a new Book, and founded a Religion? They are in books, but did they reveal a new book? They were part of a religion, but did they found a religion?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And who are they that revealed a new Book, and founded a Religion? They are in books, but did they reveal a new book? They were part of a religion, but did they found a religion?

Shoghi Effendi named, Adam, Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Bahaullah.
There was another religion mentioned in the Quran but the name of its founder is unknown.
BAHA'U'LLAH says, Before Adam, there were other Manifestations, but the history of them is not recorded.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Lamb was also Jesus the Christ, why would I want to dissprove that?

I see the Lamb talked about at the end of ages, for the Day of God, was the Bab, the Bab sacrafice His life and Cause so Baha'u'llah could be seen.

Why do people not look at the life and Message of the Bab, find out what was offered?

Regards Tony

I guess you don't have to disprove Jesus as being the Lamb. All you have to do is make everybody that you want to into The Lamb. But, are multiple Lambs prophesied in Revelation? How do you change "The Lamb" into "The Lambs"? I know... it is very easy for Baha'is, because it is all symbolic.

And the message of The Bab? Baha'is don't even talk all that much about him. So let's see... So far we have Muhammad one of the two witnesses and the first of three woes. Now we have The Bab being the second woe and The Lamb. But The Lamb is the main character in Revelation. I think it can only be Baha'u'llah, or Jesus.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I guess you don't have to disprove Jesus as being the Lamb. All you have to do is make everybody that you want to into The Lamb. But, are multiple Lambs prophesied in Revelation? How do you change "The Lamb" into "The Lambs"? I know... it is very easy for Baha'is, because it is all symbolic.

Revelation is prophecy about what is to come after Jesus.

Read Revelation 1

Thus it must be another Lamb.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But The Lamb is the main character in Revelation. I think it can only be Baha'u'llah, or Jesus.

I have given my thought on this, to me the Revelation of the Bab and Baha'u'llah can not be seperated and the Bayan is that link.

The Bab started it and said Baha'u'llah was to finish it.

Regards Tony