Biblical prophecies and statements. Are they about Jesus Christ or Bahaullah?

[CG Didymus]

Clearly now, the key have been given.

Many say the same thing to me, so I see I not the only one that thinks this.

Regards Tony

Making "Woes" into manifestations is only something Baha'is have done. And then, like I said, it is only the "Three Woes" that are interpreted this way, not the other woes.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.​

When is the abomination set up? From that day add the 1290 and 1335. Are Baha'is, again, taking these figures and starting at 621AD? Why? That's not when the abomination happens, that's the Hegira.

The start of Islamic calendar is 10 years after beginning of declaration of Muhammad.
When you count from declaration of Muhammad till, declaration of Bahaullah there 1290 years.

As regards to 1335, Abdulbaha wrote it is fulfilled 100 years after declaration of Bahaullah, meaning 1963. Bahaullah declaration was in 1863.

That means, the Beginning of 1335 years is the year 1963-1335 = 628.

628, has a signification in Islamic History. It was the year, the Surrah of Victory was revealed. So the meaning is, from the Time, the Surrah of Victory was revealed, until the time, the Victory was fulfilled, there were 1335 years.

This explanation is based on my personal research.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The iniquity of us all was laid upon the Messiah and he was born of a maiden is a clear and explicit prophecy. The Old Testament talks about the Messiah being a Redeemer in the book of Job.

Yes, how do you know Jesus was born from Virgin? Were you there to see how Mary got pregnant?
How do you know Jesus is the Redeemer?

Did you see His miracles with your own eyes?

You are only relying on what is written in New Testament. Simply you took it as truth. You cannot even prove if NT is true.
It is just what you wished to believe, and that is up to you.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So what's your point? That they didn't study the Bible? That they got all their information direct from God? So if I have a problem with what they said I should take it up with God? But, I get the feeling they probably did read the Bible once in a while. But either way, you believe them to be speaking God's word and I doubt that they are. Some things just don't make sense. And that's why we're here... to make sense of it all.

It does not matter what my point is really. I asked a fair question.
Where do you think Abdulbaha and Bahaullah were studying the Bible?

What does history tell us?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Making "Woes" into manifestations is only something Baha'is have done. And then, like I said, it is only the "Three Woes" that are interpreted this way, not the other woes.

In our view, it was upto God, when a Woe represents a revelation, and where in scripture it does not.

 

[Skywalker]

Yes, how do you know Jesus was born from Virgin? Were you there to see how Mary got pregnant?
How do you know Jesus is the Redeemer?

Did you see His miracles with your own eyes?

You are only relying on what is written in New Testament. Simply you took it as truth. You cannot even prove if NT is true.
It is just what you wished to believe, and that is up to you.

The Old Testament talks about the Messiah as a Redeemer, Advocate, and Mediator. Jesus took the iniquity of us all. He didn't just come to save us but to teach us how to live and to be the Mediator so that we could come before God. The New Testament is true, because people who wrote history books would have been punished if they didn't write things properly and the apostles were jailed for their belief in Christ and they didn't recant even though that was the perfect opportunity.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Old Testament talks about the Messiah as a Redeemer, Advocate, and Mediator. Jesus took the iniquity of us all. He didn't just come to save us but to teach us how to live and to be the Mediator so that we could come before God. The New Testament is true, because people who wrote history books would have been punished if they didn't write things properly and the apostles were jailed for their belief in Christ and they didn't recant even though that was the perfect opportunity.

Based on historical methods it cannot be established if the Gospels indeed reflect literal history.

There are many other history books, which contain many mistakes and false information. Why no body punished them?

Even, Quran claims to say, true history about many past prophets. Why nobody punished whoever wrote the Quran?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Making "Woes" into manifestations is only something Baha'is have done. And then, like I said, it is only the "Three Woes" that are interpreted this way, not the other woes.

Such is the quandary of Prophecy Interpretation.

The first proof is the Person and life of the Messenger, after that is the Message.

As such, I see one first has to accept the person and life.

Regards Tony

 

[Skywalker]

Based on historical methods it cannot be established if the Gospels indeed reflect literal history.

There are many other history books, which contain many mistakes and false information. Why no body punished them?

Even, Quran claims to say, true history about many past prophets. Why nobody punished whoever wrote the Quran?

If all we need is guidance to stay on the right path, why do people still stray after over 100,000 prophets?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If all we need is guidance to stay on the right path, why do people still stray after over 100,000 prophets?

That is a good question.
Because they have free will to stay on the right path or go on the wrong path.

But, how does your question relate to what we were discussing?

 

[Skywalker]

That is a good question.
Because they have free will to stay on the right path or go on the wrong path.

But, how does your question relate to what we were discussing?

You were comparing the Bible with the Quran and I was saying why I don't think the teachings of the Bible and the Quran can be compared, because of their different views on human nature.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You were comparing the Bible with the Quran and I was saying why I don't think the teachings of the Bible and the Quran can be compared, because of their different views on human nature.

I wasn't comparing the Quran with Bible.

You were saying those who wrote the New Testament, must have written it correctly otherwise they would have got punished.

There is no such an evidence that, if the authors of Bible didn't write truth, they would have got punished. Seems like this is what you personally imagined.

 

[Skywalker]

I wasn't comparing the Quran with Bible.

You mentioned the Quran having parts of it that were made up in the conversation that we had about whether or not the Bible is accurate history and I mentioned why you can't compare the Bible and the Quran.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You mentioned the Quran having parts of it that were made up in the conversation that we had about whether or not the Bible is accurate history and I mentioned why you can't compare the Bible and the Quran.

You were saying those who wrote the New Testament, must have written it correctly otherwise they would have got punished.

There is no such an evidence that, if the authors of Bible didn't write truth, they would have got punished. Seems like this is what you personally imagined.

So, you still owe to explain why would you believe the new testament to be truth.

 

[CG Didymus]

The start of Islamic calendar is 10 years after beginning of declaration of Muhammad.
When you count from declaration of Muhammad till, declaration of Bahaullah there 1290 years.

As regards to 1335, Abdulbaha wrote it is fulfilled 100 years after declaration of Bahaullah, meaning 1963. Bahaullah declaration was in 1863.

That means, the Beginning of 1335 years is the year 1963-1335 = 628.

628, has a signification in Islamic History. It was the year, the Surrah of Victory was revealed. So the meaning is, from the Time, the Surrah of Victory was revealed, until the time, the Victory was fulfilled, there were 1335 years.

This explanation is based on my personal research.

While it is clear that the prophecy concerning the 1,335 days is associated with the spread of the Bahá'í Faith throughout the world, several different dates are given in our authoritative texts for the actual fulfilment of this prophecy. As mentioned earlier, the two Tablets of the Master which are cited in "The Passing of `Abdu'l-Bahá", page 31, suggest different dates for the fulfilment of the prophecy of the 1,335 days: 1963 and 1957. Further, in the letters written by or on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian indicates that these same Tablets form the basis for his interpretation of the date of the fulfilment of the 1,335 days referred to in Daniel. Three different dates are either given by the Guardian or can be inferred from these same Tablets -- 1957, 1960, and 1963.

In addition, these same Tablets are also given as the reference for the one-hundred-year period that began in 1853.

In light of the foregoing, it is, therefore, suggested that:



- The prophecy of Daniel about the 1,335 days is not fulfilled by just one single date. Its fulfilment is, rather, a process that extends over a period of time.
- The fulfilment of the prophecy coincides with the period of the Ten Year Crusade, 1953-1963, a span of time that includes 1953 (the end of the hundred years whose significance is unclear), 1957, 1960, and 1963.
​

But in Daniel 12 it says that the start of this prophecy begins with the "time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up"... Why start it when Muhammad first declared or the year of the Hegira?

Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
​

 

[InvestigateTruth]

While it is clear that the prophecy concerning the 1,335 days is associated with the spread of the Bahá'í Faith throughout the world, several different dates are given in our authoritative texts for the actual fulfilment of this prophecy. As mentioned earlier, the two Tablets of the Master which are cited in "The Passing of `Abdu'l-Bahá", page 31, suggest different dates for the fulfilment of the prophecy of the 1,335 days: 1963 and 1957. Further, in the letters written by or on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian indicates that these same Tablets form the basis for his interpretation of the date of the fulfilment of the 1,335 days referred to in Daniel. Three different dates are either given by the Guardian or can be inferred from these same Tablets -- 1957, 1960, and 1963.

In addition, these same Tablets are also given as the reference for the one-hundred-year period that began in 1853.

In light of the foregoing, it is, therefore, suggested that:



- The prophecy of Daniel about the 1,335 days is not fulfilled by just one single date. Its fulfilment is, rather, a process that extends over a period of time.
- The fulfilment of the prophecy coincides with the period of the Ten Year Crusade, 1953-1963, a span of time that includes 1953 (the end of the hundred years whose significance is unclear), 1957, 1960, and 1963.
​

But in Daniel 12 it says that the start of this prophecy begins with the "time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up"... Why start it when Muhammad first declared or the year of the Hegira?

Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
​

"the daily sacrifice is abolished" is an allusion to beginning of proclamation of Muhammad.
As regards to 1335, I dont think that there is any indication from the Bible verse, that, it also has to start from the proclamation of Muhammad.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Taking a scriptural approach to the Bahai theology which a new theology to me I have come to understand that the Bahai's believe in certain things which I would like to clarify and get some insights from everyone who could participate. This concerns Christians, Jews, Bahai's and anyone who follows these scripture.

Claim 1: Son of man referred in the third person is referring to Bahaullah, not Jesus. For example, the second coming of Jesus Christians believe prophecies and spoken of in the book of revelations where both Son of Man and Word of God are referred to (Revelations 19:11 onwards).

It was said that since in other places of the New Testament like the prophecy of the coming of the Son of Man on the clouds, since it is said in the third person and Jesus speaks there, it cannot refer to himself. If Jesus referred to himself, he would say "would be coming", not "the son of man will come" in the third party tense.

Now if one examines the New Testament, the son of man is predominantly referred to in the third party. The Son of Man is drinking, and eating, a glutton, and a frind of the tax collectors, the Son of Man is the lord of the Sabbath, etc etc. Predominantly in the third party tense.

Also, it is in the present tense. Thus I would like a clarification of this.

Claim 2: Tanakh prophecies about Jesus are referred to Bahaullah. Is it possible to clearly state the prophecies from the Tanakh and why they refer to Bahaullah?


Thank you.

The NT also speaks about the man with the rod of iron.

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. Revelation 2:27

And I will give him the morning star. 2:28.



And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:15


Seems Jesus speaks of another man.

 

[CG Didymus]

In our view, it was upto God, when a Woe represents a revelation, and where in scripture it does not.

Again, that is a perfect explanation for a Baha'i. But who else are you going to convince? Where in Revelation does God make it clear that a Woe is a manifestation when every other trumpet blast prior to that signals bad things a comin'. Then it is more like God saying, "You ain't seen nothing yet. Woe, Woe, Woe for what is about to happen." And, in context, it's nothing but bad stuff.

If you want to make something a manifestation then why not try harder to show how the "Lamb" is really Baha'u'llah and not Jesus?

 

[CG Didymus]

Such is the quandary of Prophecy Interpretation.

The first proof is the Person and life of the Messenger, after that is the Message.

As such, I see one first has to accept the person and life.

Regards Tony

Okay, what was the life of Adam, Noah, and Abraham? Nothing in the Bible story makes them into manifestations. Jews don't do it. Christians don't. I don't even think Islam does, does it? Yet, the Baha'i Faith makes Adam a manifestation and the beginning of his very own "cycle", the Adamic Cycle. At least the other two, Noah and Abraham, pretty much obeyed God their whole lives. But that doesn't make them manifestations.

 

[CG Didymus]

"the daily sacrifice is abolished" is an allusion to beginning of proclamation of Muhammad.
As regards to 1335, I dont think that there is any indication from the Bible verse, that, it also has to start from the proclamation of Muhammad.

And how do Baha'is explain that it is alluding to the proclamation of Muhammad?