Belief Systems

[joe1776]

...For example, in Latin America, which is predominantly Catholic as you well know, the Church has been instrumental in preventing wars through the actions of the pope and bishops...

I'm not aware that the Church took an active role in the politics anywhere in the world. I thought its position was to not take sides (except against "godless communists" who would put them out of business.) In Latin America, civil war was expected, as power shifted from one dictator to another.

Pius XII has been criticized for remaining neutral, and not opposing, Mussolini and Hitler.

 

[Ellen Brown]

So, are you saying that religion is the opium of the people?

IMHO, there is a difference between religion and actual belief in God. We see lots of religion and religious institutions that try to impersonate God. A belief in God includes loving justice and mercy and humbly walking beside Him. Most don't like it but it is difficult, if not impossible to do if there are distractions of worldly things. Read the words of Jesus for yourself without an "expert" thinking for you.

 

[Ellen Brown]

social organization requires a collective agreement regardless. In regards to Religion the primary and fundamental aspect in western culture has been the continual reinforcement of literacy as the focus. Christianity is extremely literate, to such a degree there is no reality for it outside it's literary confine. That's pretty normal today, regardless of being a "believer" or not. in fact really the debates of Science vs religion are really narrative arguments by individuals fairly virtualized by literacy and culture. It's nonsense but hey that's normal folks for ya daydreaming and calling it reality.

I think it is not just western belief systems, it is any assemblage of humans.

 

[ManSinha]

Like so many atheists, you confuse Christianity and religion. Before people started inventing new religions and trying to enforce them, no-one quarreled about religion.

Wait a minute (emphasis mine) Christianity proselytizes and at least in India - the Muslims converted people at the point of a sword - I can provide numerous examples - so no the "new religions" are not trying to enforce anything - moreover it would appear that the so called established ones may have a fear of being consigned as a has been

 

[ManSinha]

.

For example, in Latin America, which is predominantly Catholic as you well know, the Church has been instrumental in preventing wars through the actions of the pope and bishops.

With respect - the famine and issues in Venezuela, the migration of scores of people to the Southern US border running from gangs, violence, poverty and hopelessness - give pause to that statement - while there may not be overt "wars" there is enormous human suffering by any measure

 

[ManSinha]

Read the words of Jesus for yourself without an "expert" thinking for you.

And therein lies part of the problem for some people (myself included) - Jesus preached in Aramaic - long gone and the every time an ordinary human translates it - there is a bias - conscious or otherwise - so who is to say what we have now is a faithful representation or not

 

[Ellen Brown]

And therein lies part of the problem for some people (myself included) - Jesus preached in Aramaic - long gone and the every time an ordinary human translates it - there is a bias - conscious or otherwise - so who is to say what we have now is a faithful representation or not

That's why I use the KJV because I have studied it for a long time and am familiar with many of its foibles. Actually Aramaic is still spoken in Northern Syria if Isis did not murder them. And, I don't hang on every word, but it does give me direction.

 

[metis]

I'm not aware that the Church took an active role in the politics anywhere in the world. I thought its position was to not take sides (except against "godless communists" who would put them out of business.) In Latin America, civil war was expected, as power shifted from one dictator to another.

Pius XII has been criticized for remaining neutral, and not opposing, Mussolini and Hitler.

The Church normally doesn't take sides but tries to serve as a moderator to encourage peace talks and possible compromise.

The words of Pius did not mention the fascists by name but it's quite clear through numerous pronouncements that it was it was mostly their actions that he was condemning.

 

[metis]

With respect - the famine and issues in Venezuela, the migration of scores of people to the Southern US border running from gangs, violence, poverty and hopelessness - give pause to that statement - while there may not be overt "wars" there is enormous human suffering by any measure

I would suggest that you look up what the Church has been trying to do down there, especially in the Northern Triangle Countries and in Venezuela. And you might check out what Catholic Relief Services have been doing in that context. Maybe even consider making a donation to them for their efforts because there's a lot of hardship these poor people are going through.

BTW, the Catholic Church is the world's largest non-governmental charitable body, and if you don't believe me, then let me recommend you look that up as well.

 

[metis]

And therein lies part of the problem for some people (myself included) - Jesus preached in Aramaic - long gone and the every time an ordinary human translates it - there is a bias - conscious or otherwise - so who is to say what we have now is a faithful representation or not

That's also true of Hebrew as well since the language evolved over the many centuries. About 2/3 of the birds that are considered treif (not kosher) that are mentioned in the Tanakh are unknown today as we don't know what these words stood for. Probably they are birds of prey, but we can't be certain that this is correct with all of them.

 

[joe1776]

...The words of Pius did not mention the fascists by name but it's quite clear through numerous pronouncements that it was it was mostly their actions that he was condemning.

Until the Vatican releases its entire WWII archive, which I read Francis plans to do, the Church will be suspected of collaboration with Mussolini as alleged in the book about Pius Xi. And Pius XII, who followed him, will be suspected of anti-Semitism as alleged in the book Hitler's Pope.

 

[Ellen Brown]

The Church normally doesn't take sides but tries to serve as a moderator to encourage peace talks and possible compromise.

The words of Pius did not mention the fascists by name but it's quite clear through numerous pronouncements that it was it was mostly their actions that he was condemning.

Several TV evangelists that the Evangelicals I was with and followed, said all Muslims would go to hell, right after 9/11. To me, that directly defied the very words of Jesus Christ. I shouldn't have to tell any Christian what those words were. I wonder if the same thing happened at the start of WWII, or with the Colonial invasion of the land East of the Appalachians? I can remember hearing a Pastor saying that the "Injuns" did not follow God, so he gave the land to the Europeans. What a case of evil rationalization!

 

[Ellen Brown]

Until the Vatican releases its entire WWII archive, which I read Francis plans to do, the Church will be suspected of collaboration with Mussolini as alleged in the book about Pius Xi. And Pius XII will be suspected of anti-Semitism as alleged in the book Hitler's Pope.

They were just trying to save their butts.

 

[joe1776]

They were just trying to save their butts.

Before WWII, Mussolini signed the treaty with the Church which set up Vatican City. His fascist positions were probably known but he didn't invade Ethiopia until 1935.

.Lateran Treaty | Italy [1929]

 

[Ellen Brown]

Before WWII, Mussolini signed the treaty with the Church which set up Vatican City
.Lateran Treaty | Italy [1929]

It is impossible to get inside his head to know what drove him.

 

[sooda]

Like so many atheists, you confuse Christianity and religion. Before people started inventing new religions and trying to enforce them, no-one quarreled about religion.

Sure they did and they killed heretics.

 

[sealchan]

Sooda has gotten me interested in religious "prehistory", and I've read numerous articles and watched some very good YouTube videos, so far, back to the bronze age Sumerians. If I can find something I'll go back further than that. The ruins of one Sumerian city, Uruk is in Iraq, south of Bagdad.

According to the creators of this material, a belief system is one of the key traits that seems to govern the success of the civilization.

I've realized that no matter what you believe, if the system organizes the culture and governs the inhabitants, it may not matter who your God is. I've still got to ponder this. So, perhaps it simply does not matter if a belief system makes sense to me, I won't mention any, as long as it sets order in the community, that is what is important.

It doesn't matter if a system is so ridiculous that outsiders make fun of it.If the followers believe that appears to be all that is important, at least from an early historical point of view. It appears that the main purpose of religion is to calm the fearful and give them a sense of purpose.

My reading of Hofstadter's book Metamagical Themas has me thinking that the moral solution to the Prisoner's dilemma might best be inspired by the most commonly inspirational story of someone who does the cooperative, trusting thing even though he takes the fall and that gets us in the mood to do the same.

I can think of one religion that fits that bill.

 

[pearl]

Could you elaborate on this?

Ancient civilizations were aware of and searched for this Wholly Other, each creating their own 'myths' in acknowledging the holy, separate, unlike man. If you want the scholastic view;

https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/impassibility-god

 

[metis]

Several TV evangelists that the Evangelicals I was with and followed, said all Muslims would go to hell, right after 9/11. To me, that directly defied the very words of Jesus Christ. I shouldn't have to tell any Christian what those words were. I wonder if the same thing happened at the start of WWII, or with the Colonial invasion of the land East of the Appalachians? I can remember hearing a Pastor saying that the "Injuns" did not follow God, so he gave the land to the Europeans. What a case of evil rationalization!

And I was brought up in a fundamentalist Protestant church that taught that as well. Even my own farther told me that if he ever heard that I went to a Catholic mass that he'd "kick my [dupa]", and he wasn't kidding. Imagine his and my mom's chagrin when I was dating two very devout Catholic women, eventually marrying one of them. But it didn't take long for them to love her as well, and several years later they even came to mass occasionally and actually enjoyed it!

Fortunately, there's been a lot of rethinking of this "my way or hell" approach, and many denominations have backed off on that.

 

[metis]

Ancient civilizations were aware of and searched for this Wholly Other, each creating their own 'myths' in acknowledging the holy, separate, unlike man. If you want the scholastic view;

https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/impassibility-god

Thanks for the clarification and the link, and I have long come to agree with its basic premise, which is why I feel pretty much feel comfortable in almost any religious setting. Also, you may note "My Faith Statement" at the bottom of my posts.