Before the Holocaust......

[Epic Beard Man]

Regarding Jews, Germany as a country did what they did.
But in Africa, the evil was perpetrated by colonists from
Germany. This appears to be more removed from the
responsibility of the country itself.
Ref...
Why The Herero Of Namibia Are Suing Germany For Reparations

Um, they still used the same or similar tactics as they did against Jews. Colonists or not, crimes happened. Being a colonialist does not excuse you from being culpable.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Yet another excellent example of how immigration can have disastrous effects.

True because history has shown European colonialists who impede on the lands of others have not achieved a diplomatic solution to their own goals it is simply disease, take, war, and destroy.

 

[Mox]

It really doesn't matter. There have been atrocities to people that has affected generations. The very descendants do not have to go through the atrocities, the fact that kids have to grow up knowing the psychological trauma that exists among their people is enough.

Nothing like cold hard currency to ease 'psychological trauma' I guess.

 

[Mox]

Please excuse my cynicism. I just don't see how you can make a claim against a wrong doer, if that wrong doer no longer exists.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Nothing like cold hard currency to ease 'psychological trauma' I guess.

Money does not erase atrocities but if I've learned anything society has built itself off money and money matters. Money is what got Jews their homeland, and the Native Americans casinos and the Japanese who received reparations, why are these Africans so different?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Funny how when it comes to everyone else getting reparations there is not much grumble but AFRICANS......Man you people are something else.

 

[Mox]

Funny how when it comes to everyone else getting reparations there is not much grumble but AFRICANS......Man you people are something else.

If ex colonial nations, like Namibia, needed zero interest loans and non repayable grants, for infrastructure and funding for services etc..
Then I would advocate strongly for that to be paid for out of British taxes.
For all our mutual benefit.
No problemo my old mate.

Done and done.

Money to be coughed up for the grandchildren of victims, paid for by the grandchildren of the perpetrators?

No way Hosea.

PS You people? Really? Come off it, we is one people brother.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

If ex colonial nations, like Namibia, needed zero interest loans and non repayable grants, for infrastructure and funding for services etc..
Then I would advocate strongly for that to be paid for out of British taxes.
For all our mutual benefit.
No problemo my old mate.

Done and done.

Money to be coughed up for the grandchildren of victims, paid for by the grandchildren of the perpetrators?

No way Hosea.

PS You people? Really? Come off it, we is one people brother.

"people" as in you all who disagree.....

I keep forgetting disagreeing with the wrong crowd.

 

[Mox]

"people" as in you all who disagree.....

I keep forgetting disagreeing with the wrong crowd.

I jest with ye.

 

[Stanyon]

True because history has shown European colonialists who impede on the lands of others have not achieved a diplomatic solution to their own goals it is simply disease, take, war, and destroy.

You do realize that none of that was limited to Europeans.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

You do realize that none of that was limited to Europeans.

No...The Muslim dynasties, Mongolians, Turks, etc have blood on their hands as well. But history remembers the empires that exist today. Do you think the British discovered Australia and set up the country with benevolence? Or the English settling in Americas? Or Canada? Or the Portuguese in Africa?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am going to have to change my mind. An article led me to believe that the actions against the Namibians was one of independent colonialists. That was not the case. They were still part of Germany and got their troops from there.Germany is still on the hook.

Some good background information:

Herero and Namaqua genocide - Wikipedia

 

[Revoltingest]

Um, they still used the same or similar tactics as they did against Jews. Colonists or not, crimes happened. Being a colonialist does not excuse you from being culpable.

But the culpability of whom?
In the case of Germany's pogroms, the country is directly responsible.
But the sins of colonists from Germany aren't so linked to the country.

 

[ShushersRdamned]

Why are laws in place in Germany against a time that was in the past?

Civilization.

 

[HonestJoe]

Why did modern Germans give reparations to Jews? Why are laws in place in Germany against a time that was in the past? Why is one group more accepted in receiving reparations but not the others?

Because life isn’t fair.

The reparations from Germany to Jews (though mostly to the Israeli government of course) were more political than anything else and had the momentum of being discussed pretty much immediately after the events which led to them. I’d question how much of the money actually ended up helping the actual victims of the Nazis or even their descendants (not to mention all the non-Jewish ones or the Jews who didn’t move to Israel) so I’m not convinced that’s a great model to be seeking to emulate.

At this point in time, I’d suggest a more practical direction would be to look at further Western aid and development support for the peoples of the countries impacted by our colonial past. Individual reparations for families and groups who particularly suffered might be seen as “fairer” but I’m not convinced that would bring the most benefit to them (not least because they’re unlikely to get it in the first place).

 

[Flankerl]

Why did modern Germans give reparations to Jews? Why are laws in place in Germany against a time that was in the past? Why is one group more accepted in receiving reparations but not the others?

Germany has paid over 800 million Euro to the SWAPO. That this money did not end up with the Herero is an inner-Namibian problem.
Germany also pays over 11 million Euro per year to Namibia.

Also this was a century ago. After 1918 the former colonies vanished from the German mind.
Most were occupied with the lost territories in Europe rather than colonies in Africa.
And after 1945 the events in Africa were even farther away due to the even bigger events in Europe that dwarfed WW1.

You try to see a conspiracy where there isn't one. Most Germans probably don't even know that Germany ever had colonies.


And fwiw (probably not much) contrary to the Holocaust, the events in modern Namibia weren't ordered by the German Government. They were at the discretion of military personnel in the Colony.
When word reached Germany about the atrocities people were appalled and Trotha recalled.

 

[Augustus]

Funny how when it comes to everyone else getting reparations there is not much grumble but AFRICANS...

Why do you assume the pertinent difference can only be race, rather than the fact that, unlike other reparations mentioned, the ones claiming these are 3 or 4 generations removed from the original victims?

If some people have clearly stated that they would be in favour of reparations in cases where the original victims are able to be compensated, to accuse them of racism is just bigoteering.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Germany has paid over 800 million Euro to the SWAPO. That this money did not end up with the Herero is an inner-Namibian problem.
Germany also pays over 11 million Euro per year to Namibia.

Also this was a century ago. After 1918 the former colonies vanished from the German mind.
Most were occupied with the lost territories in Europe rather than colonies in Africa.
And after 1945 the events in Africa were even farther away due to the even bigger events in Europe that dwarfed WW1.

You try to see a conspiracy where there isn't one. Most Germans probably don't even know that Germany ever had colonies.


And fwiw (probably not much) contrary to the Holocaust, the events in modern Namibia weren't ordered by the German Government. They were at the discretion of military personnel in the Colony.
When word reached Germany about the atrocities people were appalled and Trotha recalled.

Can you back this up with evidence I can read that is objective?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Why do you assume the pertinent difference can only be race, rather than the fact that, unlike other reparations mentioned, the ones claiming these are 3 or 4 generations removed from the original victims?

If some people have clearly stated that they would be in favour of reparations in cases where the original victims are able to be compensated, to accuse them of racism is just bigoteering.

Because ethnic disparities whether it’s dealing with legislations, policies, laws, reparations exist. That is the society that we live in. When you quoted me I never mentioned the word racism you inferred that I did. I could have mentioned there being an inherent bias. People often think that in order to right the wrongs monetarily, it must go to the original victims. People forget generational suffering due to the original offense.

You’re a smart guy let’s look at cause and effect using United States as an example. Slavery and the injustices along with it caused Africans to start over both intellectually and socially after being liberated from slavery. That means you have to acclimate (in which case forcefully) to your new home. That means learn language, mannerisms, culture etc. At which rate you’re still not accepted and there are even laws in the books where you are 3/4ths of a person when it comes to voting.

So now you’re prohibited to be involved in politics which may determine your future and the future of your family. So now years and decades go by with lost opportunities to where your family has lost a chance at a equal quality of life, mind you, equality in which your newly found country espouses as being “free.”

So now you live in a country for decades with no equitable social opportunity for growth. Sure, you’re free and not under the whip of a taskmaster, but now you live in segregation where now your opportunities are limited because of who you are and how you look. So now, when you die, your children’s children have to deal with the continuance of social injustice.

Then finally comes civil rights. So now those old prohibitions are no more so now you are at the starting line while the rest of society is way ahead. People often tout the immigrant model, yet they forget it’s because of the civil rights movement and the sacrifices Africans and African-Americans have made to make Habib from UAE or Suhail from India possible to succeed in the states (see:What Asian Americans Owe African Americans | HuffPost), or

Why all minorities should be grateful to the African American community

Because if we had the same laws on the books, the laws my grand parents went through Suhail from India wouldn’t have a greater chance at the opportunity to work in Silicon Valley. If you don’t believe me see:



The point I’m trying to make is, reparations is not just about awarding the original victims but about giving the victims and their descendants an equitable chance at least fiscally. This is ultimately the major argument from the African Diaspora position.

 

[Augustus]

Because ethnic disparities whether it’s dealing with legislations, policies, laws, reparations exist. That is the society that we live in. When you quoted me I never mentioned the word racism you inferred that I did.

If you say that the only reason people oppose it is due to it being about AFRICANS, then it s hard to interpret it any other way.

How else would you describe discrimination against people because they are Africans?

I could have mentioned there being an inherent bias. People often think that in order to right the wrongs monetarily, it must go to the original victims. People forget generational suffering due to the original offense.

Should the Germans also pay reparations for the 'generational suffering' caused by WW2?

My grandad went from a teetotal sportsman, to an abusive, alcoholic who gambled compulsively and ended up leaving my gran and mum homeless. Luckily she didn't get trapped in a spiral of poverty as my gran was a very strong woman, but many others of that generation did.

Establishing a principle where such people are required to pay for the crimes of even earlier generations, and giving the money to people who were less directly impacted doesn't seem very fair to me.

So now you’re prohibited to be involved in politics which may determine your future and the future of your family. So now years and decades go by with lost opportunities to where your family has lost a chance at a equal quality of life, mind you, equality in which your newly found country espouses as being “free.”

So now you live in a country for decades with no equitable social opportunity for growth. Sure, you’re free and not under the whip of a taskmaster, but now you live in segregation where now your opportunities are limited because of who you are and how you look. So now, when you die, your children’s children have to deal with the continuance of social injustice.

Many groups faced historical injustice though. Even if we assume black Americans, an average, faced worse discrimination, what is an 'acceptable' level of discrimination that your forebears faced before you too are due reparations?

The point I’m trying to make is, reparations is not just about awarding the original victims but about giving the victims and their descendants an equitable chance at least fiscally. This is ultimately the major argument from the African Diaspora position.

If you spent $1 trillion and gave every black person in America $25,000 how much long term difference would that actually make though? It's no silver bullet. For the vast majority of people, that wouldn't end up being generational money. If you decided to means test it so only the poorest quarter got $100,000, you would end up 'punishing' many lower middle class people for hard work which means they just missed out on qualifying.

And when that fails to solve many of the current issues, what happens next? More reparations?

It would certainly create an enormous amount of resentment though. There are a lot of impoverished people in America, a lot of underfunded services, and when people see large cash handouts being spent on cars and designer clothing, which some people would do, what sort of social effect would this have (and not just among whites)?

Historical racism is only one contributing factor to poverty and is not the main one, and 'generational suffering' is not limited to the black community. Reparations would ultimately involve some degree of poor people paying money to be given to other less poor people who have more money and opportunities than them. You would also have black people paying reparations to other black people simply because they had worked harder than them.

Reparations in this case has both ethical and effectiveness issues.