Baptism?

[Scott1]

By Adams action, which apposed the law of God, sin originated int he world and mans seperation from God, by sin, began. On this I think we can agree.

We agree.

But, that does not mean, as I read the scriptures, that everyone that is born inherits that sin. They only inherit the ability to sin, or I should say, the inability to serve God perfectly.

Again, we agree.... I'm starting to think that you (like many non-Catholics) don't even know what "original sin" is.... just that you don't believe in it!

I don't think that we are born into this world completely depraved. I don't see a newborn baby as a sinful creature.

We are not born "depraved"... and a newborn baby is not a "sinful creature".... again, we agree.

Bottom line is, I believe that we are born nto this world without blemish. As we learn and grow, it is the sin of the world that corrupts us and causes us to sin.

So it should be possible then.... in a hypothetical situation, say sometime in next 2,000 years... for a baby to be born..... locked in a room... kept alive by computers/robots.... only educated by the Bible.... living a life of constant prayer and devotion.... would this person STILL be without blemish? I believe you'd have to say yes.... but then explain to me why Christ died for this person? Explain to me what this person would need to repent from .... need to confess.... or what possible use baptism would be to this person?

BTW, my sincere apology if the above comes across as preaching.

Naaaah... I loved it.... Christians hoping to grow in faith by engaging in a civil discussion with other believers is truly a blessing from God.

By the way.... the funniest/ironic part of this whole discussion is that we agree 99% on this issue.... the problem is, you have assumed incorrectly what Original sin means to me....

Scott

 

[Scott1]

But what I fail to understand is how baptism without the belief is going to serve the purpose you intend it to.

I believe in the supernatural grace of God.

I'm kinda suprised by the amount of Christians who seem to think they "save themselves".... which is what everyone here arguing for a believers baptism is essentially doing. Let me explain:

According to what ya'll are saying, salvation goes like this:
1. You come to have an educated and mature faith in Christ.
2. You make the decision to repent and be baptised.
3. You are baptised.
4. You ________ (whatever you believe happens next)

Conclusion= You are saved by your knowledge (educated and mature faith) and your actions (repentance and conversion.... baptism).

You are saved by your works.

I believe that I am saved by the grace of God.... and that God in the Sacraments impart the grace to inherit salvation. Baptism incorporates me into the death and resurection of Jesus Christ by the grace of God.... not by my works (education/"right" knowledge of Scripture etc).

This is what I believe.... your mileage may vary (as a wise friend of mine is fond of saying.)

Peace in Christ,
Scott

 

[Pah]

I am always mystified, when at infant baptism, an adult stands in for the child and then promises to bring the child into the faith - not the parents but the god-parents. I was baptised this way and was god-parent to two of my cousins. This was not as extrodinary as you might think - I was a faithful teen-aged member of the Church at the time. However, as an "practising" Atheist, I am god-parent to three Catholic children. and witness to the "second" marriage of their mother at a Catholic service.

 

[Scott1]

I'm confused as to what mystifies you Pah...please clarify.

 

[Pah]

I'm confused as to what mystifies you Pah...please clarify.

• That the parents are not responsible
• that an Atheist may be responsible
• that a Church would accept that circimstance

 

[Scott1]

Ahhhh... I get ya.

Well... obviously most non-Catholics on this thread will disagree with me, but I'll try to explain anyhow.

That the parents are not responsible

Baptism is a Sacrament.... it is a supernatural event.... Catholic parents can sit back and relax, God does all the "heavy lifting".

that an Atheist may be responsible

Well... just FYI, the Priest who agreed to have an atheist as a God parent was in violation of canon law... that's a no-no.
.... but, I guess as long as you agreed to raise the child as a Catholic, you can be a God-parent... but you do realize that God-parents are "for show", right? Everyone in attendance at Church for the Baptism must also agree to love and support the spiritual growth of the newly baptised child.... it's part of our sacramental theology... but you won't get legal custody of the children as a result of being a God-parent.

that a Church would accept that circimstance

I hope this is already covered.... God is doing all the work... the rest of us are a Holy "cheering section".... and I'm pretty comfortable with this particular circumstance.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Scott... Faith is a "work". But not the work that you refer to.

When Naamun was cleansed in the river Jordan, did he or God do the work? It took seven dips before he was clean. Do you think he was 6/7 clean on the next to last dunk? Of course not. The dunking didn't clean him, God did, once God saw Naamun's humility to a silly request.

In the same way, when we are baptised, we are humbling ourselves to God and letting HIM do all of the work. God could have chosen ANYTHING... putting your finger in your ear, jumping up and down on one foot... ANYTHING. But he chose baptism, and I think I am going to trust him and his word on this.

 

[michel]

Ahhhh... I get ya.

Well... obviously most non-Catholics on this thread will disagree with me, but I'll try to explain anyhow.
Baptism is a Sacrament.... it is a supernatural event.... Catholic parents can sit back and relax, God does all the "heavy lifting".
Well... just FYI, the Priest who agreed to have an atheist as a God parent was in violation of canon law... that's a no-no.
.... but, I guess as long as you agreed to raise the child as a Catholic, you can be a God-parent... but you do realize that God-parents are "for show", right? Everyone in attendance at Church for the Baptism must also agree to love and support the spiritual growth of the newly baptised child.... it's part of our sacramental theology... but you won't get legal custody of the children as a result of being a God-parent.
I hope this is already covered.... God is doing all the work... the rest of us are a Holy "cheering section".... and I'm pretty comfortable with this particular circumstance.

I did not know that - I did realize that the God parents would not get legal custody; which is why we added a codecil to our wills to ensure that our children would be cared for by the God parents. As it turns out, The husband (They are husband/wife) turned out to be the last person I would have chosen as a God-parent - he 'lost his way' along the journey.

 

[Linus]

So it should be possible then.... in a hypothetical situation, say sometime in next 2,000 years... for a baby to be born..... locked in a room... kept alive by computers/robots.... only educated by the Bible.... living a life of constant prayer and devotion.... would this person STILL be without blemish? I believe you'd have to say yes....

That's what you believe. I believe that that person would still mess up. Somewhere sompleace they will make a wrong decision. Either that, or they will likely, because of the living conditions/upbringin of this particular person, commit the sin of "going through the motions." That is, displaying the outward signs of being a Christian, while inwardly not really caring or even doing it all begrudgingly.

but then explain to me why Christ died for this person? Explain to me what this person would need to repent from .... need to confess.... or what possible use baptism would be to this person?

God forbid a person lives a sinless life!

Tell me where God wanted us to sin for the sole reason of saving us.

A perosn that never sinned would not need that mercy of God. They wouldn't need the sacrifice of Christ. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. If one commits no sin one is not lost. No need for saving.

 

[may]

Adam indeed introduced sin into the world... I have seemed to have perfected it!

That he brought spiritual death to us does not mean that we inherit his sin. Re-read the first line of the first scripture you quoted:

and so death spread to all men because all men sinned

If someone were to break the chain, then Jesus would not have had to die. But die he did, hallelujah.

we have inherited sin because we all grow old and die .it was not Gods original purpose for man to die ,it washis purpose for us to live forever .so no man can break the chain because we all die .

 

[Scuba Pete]

May... Adam died immediately and spiritually. Physical death is of little consequence when compared to spiritual death.

 

[Katzpur]

I believe in the supernatural grace of God.

I'm kinda suprised by the amount of Christians who seem to think they "save themselves".... which is what everyone here arguing for a believers baptism is essentially doing. Let me explain:

According to what ya'll are saying, salvation goes like this:
1. You come to have an educated and mature faith in Christ.
2. You make the decision to repent and be baptised.
3. You are baptised.
4. You ________ (whatever you believe happens next)

Conclusion= You are saved by your knowledge (educated and mature faith) and your actions (repentance and conversion.... baptism).

You are saved by your works.

I believe that I am saved by the grace of God.... and that God in the Sacraments impart the grace to inherit salvation. Baptism incorporates me into the death and resurection of Jesus Christ by the grace of God.... not by my works (education/"right" knowledge of Scripture etc).

This is what I believe.... your mileage may vary (as a wise friend of mine is fond of saying.)

Peace in Christ,
Scott

Come on now, Scott. I've been around long enough to know that Catholics do not subscribe to the doctrine of "sola fide" any more than the Mormons do. Like you, I do not believe that we can save ourselves. Even the best of us is simply incapable of doing so. On the other hand, we both know that "faith without works is dead." My question concerned the role of belief in Christ as a necessary component for salvation. Your posts implied (to me, anyway) that you, as a Catholic parent, would baptize your children so as not to jeopardize their eternal salvation and I just didn't see how baptism without belief could save them. So did I misunderstand you or what?

Kathryn

 

[may]

May... Adam died immediately and spiritually. Physical death is of little consequence when compared to spiritual death.

yes he died spiritually but he died also phyisically within the day . God said they would die within a day and they died before they reached a 1000 year day of Jehovah
However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day...2 peter 3;8so they were cut off from that other tree , the tree of life....Genesis 3;22and they started to die because they were cut of from the life sourse

 

[Scuba Pete]

May,

The spiritual death was instantaneous... even before God challenged him. His physical death was much, much later.

 

[BUDDY]

Scott,

Okay, could you please tell me what "original sin" means then? I was under the impression that it was the belief that because of Adams "original sin", or first sin, that all of mankind were born inhereting that sin, thus children are born with that sin as well and need to be baptised. Where am I wrong, or am I simplifying the complex? Admittedly, I have been known to do this.

 

[Scott1]

I believe that that person would still mess up. Somewhere sompleace they will make a wrong decision.

Yes, they would. Every person... every time... no matter what conditions they are brought up in... no matter what.

You know, it almost sounds like all humans are born into the condition that makes them prone to sin. Hmmmm

Tell me where God wanted us to sin for the sole reason of saving us.

God does not want us to sin.... sin in a choice, our choice. What the heck is your point?

 

[Scott1]

My question concerned the role of belief in Christ as a necessary component for salvation. Your posts implied (to me, anyway) that you, as a Catholic parent, would baptize your children so as not to jeopardize their eternal salvation and I just didn't see how baptism without belief could save them. So did I misunderstand you or what?

Yes, you misunderstood.

You are reading too much into things... I would baptize a child "so as not to jeopardize their eternal salvation" because I believe it imparts God's grace into their life.

You keep reading things like the children are going to die immediately after baptism or they don't have to do anything else for the rest of their lives.... that's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that we believe baptism is a bit more than a ritual "bath" for someone who already has faith... it actually has supernatural power that provides the baptised person with real strength to grow as a Christian.

Baptism, for me, is more about Christ's power than the "believers" power.... but again... I'm not trying to say that anyone is "wrong" with a believers baptism..

... I guess I forgot to mention that I became a Christian two years ago. I WAS NOT AN INFANT. I had a believers baptism.... both are beautiful... but for different reasons.

Peace in Christ,
Scott

 

[Scott1]

I was under the impression that it was the belief that because of Adams "original sin", or first sin, that all of mankind were born inhereting that sin, thus children are born with that sin as well and need to be baptised.

Original sin is NOT a personal sin.... we did not inherit the guilt of Adam's first sin..... but it is still part of us:

All men are implicated in Adam's sin, as St. Paul affirms: "By one man's disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners": "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned." The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."(Rom 5:12,19 - Rom 5:18)

How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

Hope that helps.... and I bet it's pretty close to what you believe.

 

[may]

May,

The spiritual death was instantaneous... even before God challenged him. His physical death was much, much later.

true i agree it took nearly athousand years for adam to die

 

[Linus]

Yes, they would. Every person... every time... no matter what conditions they are brought up in... no matter what.

You know, it almost sounds like all humans are born into the condition that makes them prone to sin. Hmmmm

I was talking about your person born without original sin. I believe that even without original sin, a person brought up in the conditions you described would still comit a sin.

God does not want us to sin.... sin in a choice, our choice. What the heck is your point?

My point is that you make it sound like God wanted to save us. By asking the question, "What good is Jesus' sacrifice to one who never sinned?", you (it seems to me) are implying that God wants us to be imperfect just so that He can save us. So what if someone lives without sinning? That's just one less person that God will have to worry about. I don't think God is going to say, "Oh no! Someone lived a life without sinning! Why did I even send Jesus in the first place?"