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Baptism?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Ryan2065, Jul 11, 2005.

  1. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    My viewpoint arises from the fact that the Bible doesn’t directly say whom to baptize. On the one hand, it doesn’t say we should baptize infants, but on the other hand, it also doesn’t say we should baptize only adults, either. That isn’t a “problem” with the text, it’s simply a result of the fact that the text was written to people who already knew whom to baptize. Don't you love Holy Tradition...:D
    Many ASSUME that all the households didn't have infants......it goes both ways. But I guess some people just want to make the assertion that NOT ONE infant was in a household.

    The Least
    ~Victor
     
  2. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    It does say we should "Repent and be Baptised". One without the other does not work. If you have an infant that is truly ready to repent, then baptism would be appropriate.
     
  3. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    Good point Doc. Acts 2:38.

    Also, according to Mark 16:16 he who believes and is baptized will be saved. How can one be certain that in infant believes...in anything?
     
  4. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    What is the "purpose" of baptism? What do you believe baptism actually does?
     
  5. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    In every single solitary instance where the scriptures mention the reason for baptism, the word "baptize" or "baptism" is coupled with the word "repent" or "repentance." Every one. Most also clarify that this ordinance is for the remission of sins. Even if you believe in the doctrine of Original Sin (which I don't), you've got to admit that it's impossible for anyone to repent for Adam's sin. You can only repent for your own sins, and you can't do so until you're old enough to recognize what sin is.

    Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance...

    Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

    Luke 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins...

    Acts 2:38 Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

    Acts 13:24 ...When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
     
  6. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    In short, the purpose is to cleanse you of your sins. An appeal to God for a clean conscience. 1 Peter 3:21
     
  7. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    hey wassup! Well, i am pretty cool about the whole thing, no need in being legalistic, eh?

    I believe in "believer's baptism", that is the main deal. But, if someone wants to baptize an infant, I think, it really doesn't cover " original sin", but it can be more for the parents to consecrate themselves to raising the child in Christ. We shouldn't judge each other in special days, personal days we have. So don't get down on someone who wants to sprinkle a baby.

    Once a person is saved by the free gift of Jesus, then they should be baptized as a symbol and for an outward profession of face, and in obedience to God. Notice, thats once you are saved, baptism does not save you, nor cleanse one from "original sin".

    The "original sin" baptism is a sacrement of the catholic church, wherein if you do all the sacrements right, etc, etc, you may get to heaven easier, but Jesus paid for all our sins on the cross, we need not pay anything in "purgatory" nor do we need to follow the rituals of the sacrements, for Christ has already paid for our sins and offered salvation as a totally free gift.
     
  8. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    lol, profession of faith, lol
     
  9. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    What if the person has not sinned?
    Again, what if the person has no sins to be "cleansed" of.... and has a clean conscience....??
     
  10. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    I do appreciate that.:D
    What happens if they don't?
    Nor do we need to do good works.... be kind to others.... read the Bible.... go to Church.... spread the Gospel..... we can just kick back and wait for heaven.;)
     
  11. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    Romans 3:23, Scott. Don't be silly.

    One can have a clean conscience, but still have sin in one's life. It's called denial. I think we can agree on that. What are you geting at?
     
  12. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Silly?... me? Never.:p

    This verse does not help your position Linus:
    Romans 3:23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    ALL?

    It does not say that we all WILL sin....

    It does not say that we are born pure but EVENTUALLY will commit a sin.....

    It DOES say that we all HAVE sinned.

    One more time:
    ALL (that means every person... babies and old men alike) HAVE (past tense--- committed sins) SINNED (past tense)

    So, what point were you trying to make with this quote?
     
  13. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    What sin can an infant commit?

    I believe that Romans 3:23, as well as the Bible in its entirety, must be interpreted reasonably. Literally all have sinned, right? Even Jesus? It does say ALL have sinned. Obviously not. Because that isn't reasonable. Babies? No. I don't believe that is reasonable either. Why? Because I can't name one sin that an infant could commit.

    Looking at Mark 16:16,Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:21, I don't see how an infant could be baptized anyway. They can neither believe, repent, nor make an appeal to God for a clean conscience.
     
  14. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    By the time a person has reached the age of accountability (whatever you believe that age to be), he has sinned. As Paul told the Romans, "All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Even an eight-year-old child has sassed his parents. He's disobeyed the commandment to honor one's father and mother. That's a sin. We're not just talking about murder and adultery here. We need to be forgiven for all of our sins, the little ones as well as the big ones. And a child of that age also has the ability to recognize his sins and repent.
     
  15. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Scott,

    Just a few posts back, you said, "we are born pure and clean." You can't have it both ways at once. If a baby is born pure and clean, it hasn't sinned. So which is it?

    Kathryn
     
  16. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    ... and I agree.... you seem to be missing the point that I agree.... my point was the verse you give as "proof" is not convincing.
    Why?
    You seem to miss the context.... I am asking Linus a question.... I don't believe babies have any personal sins... I would just like you and Linus to give me an explaination...

    .... an 8 yr old sassed a parent? Did that 8 year old know that it was a sin... everyone keeps talking about a "believers baptism".... that one must be "qualified" to be a Christian.... I don't believe this 8 year old is qualified to know what a sin is...
     
  17. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    If we dont get baptised? It is not a requirement of salvation, but it is an act of obedience to God. Why wouldn't a person want to? Yeah, you could kick back and wait for heaven, but wouldn't you rather live for the one who loved you and died for you, wouldn't you want to tell others the wonderful news? Wouldn't you want to please the Lord, and have treasure in heaven? A person who doesn't change much or do much once they are saved will not have the same rewards as one who does serve the Lord in love.
     
  18. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    Yet you still believe that an infant needs to be baptized?

    I already explained to you my rationale for this verse the verse. It isn't reasonable to include infants in that verse. Especially in light of Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, and 1 Peter 3:21.

    :eek: I'm sorry, I must have missed something...

    What exactly are you wanting an explanation of?
     
  19. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    It's not? :eek: You know, for someone who claims to base his beliefs on the Bible, you sure do come up with some interesting theories. According to Mark, belief and baptism are both essential to salvation.

    Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    And Jesus Christ himself said that we must be baptised of both water and the Spirit in order to enter into God's kingdom.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
     
  20. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    The BLOOD of Christ cleanses us of our sins, water can't do a thing. Eph. 1:7, 2:13, Col. 1:14, 20, and many more say this.

    Water refers to being born as a baby, like when the water breaks, Spirit is the 2nd birth. The verse in Mark was directed to Jews at that particular time, i.e. the Baptism of John, remember, Jesus had not died yet!!!

    There are many more verses that say He that believeth and nothing more.

    I.E ...What must I do to be saved? ...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved...Acts16:30-31

    John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.



    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death to life. Look through John, see how many times Jesus says believe in or on him. Not to believe like the devils do, but to believe in, to put your complete trust in him and what he did on the cross, that his blood washed away your sins.

    I still think people should be baptized once they have been saved, but not to get or stay saved. Peace!
     
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