Baptism?

[Scott1]

I was talking about your person born without original sin. I believe that even without original sin, a person brought up in the conditions you described would still comit a sin.

You missed the point.... original sin is a reality... that is the ONLY logical explaination of why EVERYONE would commit a sin no matter what the circumstances.

You can deny original sin all day long Linus..... but your views on humanity and our proclivity to sinning are 100% compatable to mine.

I don't know why it's so hard for everyone to understand.... would it be easier if we described it as something other than "original sin"?

By asking the question, "What good is Jesus' sacrifice to one who never sinned?", you (it seems to me) are implying that God wants us to be imperfect just so that He can save us.

1. God made us perfect.
2. Adam and Eve changed that.
3. All humanity is in need of salvation.
4. By his defeat of death and sin, Christ has redeemed us.

What's the problem you have with this?


Scott

 

[Linus]

1. God made us perfect.
2. Adam and Eve changed that.
3. All humanity is in need of salvation.
4. By his defeat of death and sin, Christ has redeemed us.

What's the problem you have with this?

My problem is that I believe we are made just as perfect as Adam and Eve were. Adam and Eve made the same stupid mistake we all make. That makes either them just like us, or us just like them.

 

[Scott1]

My problem is that I believe we are made just as perfect as Adam and Eve were. Adam and Eve made the same stupid mistake we all make. That makes either them just like us, or us just like them.

Every human being makes the "same stupid mistake" (sinning) 100% of the time.... for all eternity.

OK... but there are some of us who think that something that happens 100% of the time regardless of contributing factors is evidence of something.

Peace in Christ Linus,
Scott

 

[Linus]

But what about Adam and Eve? Did they have this little somethig?

 

[Scott1]

But what about Adam and Eve? Did they have this little somethig?

No... ummm... are you serious?

In your opinion... what does the Adam and Eve story mean? Just an unfortunate story of two humans with no significance to the rest of humanity? I don't get it.

 

[Mister Emu]

No... ummm... are you serious?

I believe I see where Linus is going with this, If it is this "thing" that causes us to sin, why did Adam and Eve eat the fruit?

 

[may]

I believe I see where Linus is going with this, If it is this "thing" that causes us to sin, why did Adam and Eve eat the fruit?

because they were decieved by satan ,satan is the originater of the first lie

Jesus Christ identified the first liar, and he showed that it was not a human. He said: "When he [Satan] speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie." (John 8:44) So the first liar was Satan the Devil. When did he start telling lies? According to the Bible, it was shortly after the beginning of the history of the human race.​

The event is recorded in the Bible book of Genesis, and the lie was a matter of life or death for mankind. God indicated to the first man, Adam, that his continued life depended on obedience. He gave Adam a simple law to keep and said that if he failed to keep that law he would "positively die." But Satan maliciously lied and said: "You positively will not die." That was the first of the billions of lies that have been heard on this planet Earth.—Genesis 2:17; 3:4.​

Many today do not believe that account in the Bible. But Jesus, the most truthful man who ever lived, confirmed that the record in Genesis is not myth but true history. (Matthew 19:4, 5) Certainly, the results of that lie are still with us. It spelled disaster for the human race.

 

[Scott1]

I believe I see where Linus is going with this, If it is this "thing" that causes us to sin, why did Adam and Eve eat the fruit?

I agree with may.(there's something you don't read every day...hehe).. Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command. This is what man's first sin consisted of. All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness.

In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully "divinized" by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to "be like God", but "without God, before God, and not in accordance with God".

 

[Scuba Pete]

Great point Linus!

All of us have the SAME opportunity to not sin. All of us still sin.

 

[Katzpur]

You missed the point.... original sin is a reality... that is the ONLY logical explaination of why EVERYONE would commit a sin no matter what the circumstances.

I don't know why it's so hard for everyone to understand.... would it be easier if we described it as something other than "original sin"?

Hey, Scott.

Why don't you begin by explaining exactly what you mean by "original sin," because it's not a reality for all of us. Do you make a distinction between being born "in sin" and being born "with a natural disposition to sin"? Personally, I think there is a world of difference. Sin is willful disobedience to God's laws; how can someone hours old willfully disobey God's laws? I believe we inherited Adam's sinful nature, but it makes no sense to me at all to say that we share in the guilt for something we didn't do. We make enough mistakes on our own without having to be held accountable for what our first parents did.

By his defeat of death and sin, Christ has redeemed us.

Well, if we are truly born tainted with Adam's sin, it would appear He didn't. If He truly redeemed us (as I believe He did), we wouldn't be born into a state of wickedness. We'd be born clean and pure -- as I believe we are.

Kathryn

 

[Scott1]

I believe we inherited Adam's sinful nature,

That's the definition of original sin.

We'd be born clean and pure -- as I believe we are.

I believe so as well.

 

[Katzpur]

That's the definition of original sin.
I believe so as well.

Okay, now I'm really confused. If you believe that Christ atoned for the "Original Sin" and that we are all born pure and clean, what is the purpose of Limbo? I thought it was a place where unbaptized babies went, and that it had something to do with the fact that they hadn't actually sinned themselves, but were being denied entrance into God's presence by virtue of the fact that Adam sinned and that, without baptism, the effects of his sin would effect their salvation. I'm seeing a contradiction here. (Or a misunderstanding. If so, please explain.)

 

[Scott1]

If you believe that Christ atoned for the "Original Sin" and that we are all born pure and clean,

Christ did not clense us of original sin.... we are born "pure and clean" as you say... without the guilt of any personal sins... but with a sinful nature inherited from Adam.

what is the purpose of Limbo?

Limbo is not a Catholic dogma.

 

[Linus]

we are born... with a sinful nature inherited from Adam.

Please forgive and correct me if I am taking your quote out of context, but does your statement above merit the baptism of infants? For me, that is the heart of this issue. I do not believe that anyone should be baptized until they know what thepurpose is.

Limbo is not a Catholic dogma.

I wonder if, perhaps, Katzpur meant Purgatory. Again, correct me if I'm wrong...

 

[Quiddity]

For me, that is the heart of this issue. I do not believe that anyone should be baptized until they know what thepurpose is.

Why?

~Victor

 

[Scuba Pete]

How is it an appeal of a good conscience if you DON'T fullly understand it?

How do you repent, unless you fully understand it?

 

[Katzpur]

I wonder if, perhaps, Katzpur meant Purgatory. Again, correct me if I'm wrong...

Nope. I meant Limbo. I know what Purgatory is. I also know I've heard Catholics mention Limbo. Beyond that, I'm kind of in limbo as to what it's all about.

 

[johnnys4life]

How is it an appeal of a good conscience if you DON'T fullly understand it?

How do you repent, unless you fully understand it?

That is a good question. I wonder that myself. I do know that there were in the Bible whole families who were baptised, apparently including infants and/or small children, I guess as a sign that the entire family was repenting and heading a different direction. That is just my best guess at the justification...but I may be off a bit...

 

[Katzpur]

I do know that there were in the Bible whole families who were baptised, apparently including infants and/or small children, I guess as a sign that the entire family was repenting and heading a different direction.

How on earth does a baby go about repenting?

 

[Scuba Pete]

J4L,

I would challenge you to find a specific incidence of a child or infant being baptised in the scriptures. Many ASSUME that an entire household must include an infant or child, but this would be an erroneous assumption.