Bahai's and the Bible. Errant or Inerrant. Holistic or cherry picking?

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, you say the Lamb is The Bab and that God comes after to wipe away the tears? So you are saying that the Lamb, The Bab, is the manifestation/forerunner to God? And I'm supposed to remember this is the Day of God? Still, nothing specific about a second manifestation that comes after The Lamb?

Baha'u'llah is 'Glory of God'.

Baha'u'llah brought the Day of God.

It is Bahaullah that wipes away the tears.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

You cannot just cherry pick one verse and try to understand what it means out of the context of all the other verses.

And do Christians and Baha'is do that?

Quote Peter saying "Joel was speaking about that Pentecost." Otherwise it is just your personal opinion, so don’t state it as a fact.

So he can't state that as a fact? Yet...

Both those verses above refer to Baha’u’llah, who was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth

You and other Baha'is state your interpretations as facts?

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate

Who is the "Father"? I would assume it is God. Then, who is the "he"? That's God also isn't it? But God is a spirit, so "he" cannot mean God? Or, maybe this "he" problem is a translation problem. I wonder what Paul was saying in Greek? Oh, and do you now believe everything that Paul says? Or, just some of the things he, Paul, says?

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'u'llah is 'Glory of God'.

Baha'u'llah brought the Day of God.

It is Bahaullah that wipes away the tears.

Regards Tony

Yeah, we all know that a Persian man took the title of "The Glory of God". That he wrote a lot of very spiritual and profound books, but when it comes to fulfilling prophecy... did he? Baha'is take a lot of liberties in their interpretations to make prophecies get fulfilled. Like making "Woes" manifestations. And the number or mark of the beast a date 661AD. But, I wonder, do you believe the Bible is inerrant or does it have some errors? Do you take the whole of the Bible or do you cherry pick specific verses and disregard the context? It seems like Baha'is have put themselves in the awkward positions of believing both.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah, we all know that a Persian man took the title of "The Glory of God". That he wrote a lot of very spiritual and profound books, but when it comes to fulfilling prophecy... did he? Baha'is take a lot of liberties in their interpretations to make prophecies get fulfilled. Like making "Woes" manifestations. And the number or mark of the beast a date 661AD. But, I wonder, do you believe the Bible is inerrant or does it have some errors? Do you take the whole of the Bible or do you cherry pick specific verses and disregard the context? It seems like Baha'is have put themselves in the awkward positions of believing both.

That is up to you to decide CG.

I have answered all the question you have asked to the best of my ability.

How you choose to see the Message of Baha'u'llah is not for me to offer.

I see every question is answerd by Baha'u'llah and I have offered those answers, I hope you understand.

Did you read the Kitab-i-Iqan, the key underlying the Oneness of the Messengers. If not, how can I offer any more?

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

And do Christians and Baha'is do that?

I didn’t. I posted all the verses surrounding that verse in question.

So he can't state that as a fact? Yet...

You and other Baha'is state your interpretations as facts?

I do not state them as facts, I state them as interpretations.

Who is the "Father"? I would assume it is God. Then, who is the "he"? That's God also isn't it? But God is a spirit, so "he" cannot mean God? Or, maybe this "he" problem is a translation problem. I wonder what Paul was saying in Greek? Oh, and do you now believe everything that Paul says? Or, just some of the things he, Paul, says?

The Father is God and in that verse “he” refers to God. God is spirit but normally referred to as a “he” rather than it. The verses must be read in context in order to understand what they mean. God can send the Comforter because the Comforter is a man and God sends men (Messengers, Manifestations). However, the Holy Spirit is not a “he” unless it is associated with a man. I mean the disembodied Holy Spirit cannot teach all things and testify of Jesus floating around in the air.

 

[Brian2]

And who doesn't cherry pick the Bible? One verse, Isaiah 7:14 makes Jesus a virgin born son of God. But what about the rest of the verses in chapter 7? Never do Christians mention them as relating to Jesus. So who do they relate to? The child that was born in Isaiah's time and was the "sign" for King Ahaz? But then, verse 14 doesn't apply to that child but to Jesus centuries later?

It's good to see that you don't concentrate on Baha'is to the exclusion of everyone else.
The way I see Isa 7:14 is that possibly Matthew used the Septuagint (which has virgin) or possibly he wrote in Hebrew or Aramaic and it was copied into Greek as "virgin". BUT putting that aside I would say that Matthew knew Mary had been a virgin and could see the relationship in Isaiah between the child in Isa 7:14 and in Isa 9. The child in Isa 9 is the Messianic child according to what it written there about Him and can be identified with Jesus in the first part of Isa 9 when it mentions the area Jesus live. The Jews see Isa 9 child as about Hezekiah it seems even though it is plainly Messianic. (I'm sure Jews in the past have seen it as Messianic) The Jews also see the connection between Isa 7 child and Isa 9 child in a prophecy about those times, but the word used in Isa 7:14 can be translated, 'young maiden' or 'virgin', depending on the circumstances it is used in and so the whole Isa 7, 9 thing can be part of the one prophecy about those times and/or distant future times (and it looks that way from what is written about the child of Isa 9) and so with that in mind and knowing that Mary was a virgin, Matthew probably saw it as appropriate to use the other meaning of "almah" in Isa 7:14. I hope you can follow that.

It is easy to miss posts when done the way you did it, to many people in the one post. I know sometimes I run through the posts and probably miss a post to me if I am not first person answered in a post.

 

[Brian2]

But that would not change what I said. The verses would still mean the same thing.

It would not mean a "spirit body" as you seem to read it. It could mean a body that is controlled by our spirit, as the Greek word people say.

A physical body is corruptible because it is subject to decomposition, and it cannot be changed into a physical body that will not decompose.

I did not mean that a spirit would put those things on. I meant that only a spiritual body can BE immortal and incorruptible because it is made of spiritual elements that can never die. A physical body cannot be immortal and incorruptible because physical elements die.

Isa 15:52...........For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

It is the perishable which puts on the imperishable and the mortal which puts on immortality. Our physical bodies are changed to spiritual bodies, but not to spirits. There is no need for a resurrection and that change if it is just the soul that carries on forever after this life.

Our physical bodies are changed, but after they are changed, they are no longer physical.

What Paul wrote is right on the money. I picked the most pertinent verses from the chapter because that helps to see it clearer. Our dying bodies will be transformed into bodies that will never die. Our transformed bodies will be spiritual bodies. Paul says that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God and that means they cannot exist in heaven. When Paul says these dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, he is referring to the spiritual world (heaven), which will last forever.

I would have to agree with you really. At the same time I do not believe we are just spirits. As I said, there is no need for a resurrection if that is the case. A physical body which has put on imperishability and immortality certainly is not normal physical when it is tansformed.
I get to the point sometimes in our discussions about this subject when I wonder what we are arguing about because it seems you should be able to accept what I said there, but for some reason you still want to deny the resurrection of Jesus into an imperishable and immortal spiritual body.

Those verses in Romans do not refer to what will happen after our physical body dies. The redemption of our bodies does not mean that physical bodies will be made into glorified bodies that are both physical and spiritual. Paul clearly says “There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body” and that means they are not the same kind of bodies.

True they are not the same kind of body, they are then imperishable and immortal but are the old bodies which have been redeemed and transformed.
Of course those verses refer to what will happen after our physical body dies.

Redemption means the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil, so that verse means that those who have the firstfruits of the Spirit (Jesus) will be redeemed; they will be saved from sin, error, or evil.

Redemption means to purchase back and in this instance (Romans 8:23) it means that our dead bodies (along with the rest of our being) have been purchased back from the grave and corruption and mortality by the blood of Jesus.

True, those who were spiritually dead will be resurrected spiritually, but 1Thess 4 is about what will happen when Christ returns, it is not about what will happen when we die. You cannot jump from 1Thess 4 to 1Cor 15 because that are about different things.

In 1Thess 4 Paul says the dead in Christ will rise first and that means those who had turned away from Christ (thus were spiritually dead) will be the first to become spiritually alive. Paul says that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him, and that means those who were spiritually asleep in Jesus will be brought to Jesus. This makes perfect sense in light of what Baha’u’llah wrote about will happen when Christ returns. The shout was raised when Baha’u’llah came and below He describes exactly what happened.

“Say: The heavens have been folded together, and the earth is held within His grasp, and the corrupt doers have been held by their forelock, and still they understand not. They drink of the tainted water, and know it not. Say: The shout hath been raised, and the people have come forth from their graves, and arising, are gazing around them. Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy, others have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment. The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them. His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it. And when they behold the face of the All-Merciful, their own faces are saddened, while they are disporting themselves. They hasten forward to Hell Fire, and mistake it for light. Far from God be what they fondly imagine! Say: Whether ye rejoice or whether ye burst for fury, the heavens are cleft asunder, and God hath come down, invested with radiant sovereignty. All created things are heard exclaiming: “The Kingdom is God’s, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.””
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 41-42

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-17.html.utf8?query=graves&action=highlight#gr4

Yes I can see. A couple of redefinitions of terms and the passage is explained away to those with the confirmation bias needed to not see that the passage is about the resurrection of the dead which happens when Jesus returns.
The disciples of Jesus certainly did not think the way you are explaining when they wrote such things.
The passage opens this way:
1Thess 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
The rest of mankind grieves for the dead as if there is no hope of resurrection.

 

[Brian2]

No, there are no passages that say that the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit.

If the Advocate is the Holy Spirit, then so is the Spirit of Truth.
John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.

No, the last days did not begin with Jesus the last days begin when Christ returns.

The first days of Baha'u'llah are actually the last days? Hmmm.
Acts 2:16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
No, Peter was saying the Joel prophecy about the last days was happening at that Pentecost.
The last days is just before Jesus returns, and He returns on the last day.
John 6:39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

If Jesus was an advocate that means that the advocate cannot be the Holy Spirit as you have been saying, since Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. If Jesus was an advocate (comforter) that means that Baha’u’llah can also be an advocate (another Comforter).

Jesus was not the Holy Spirit, true, the Holy Spirit was another comforter.
Baha'u'llah cannot be the other comforter promised by Jesus since the Holy Spirit is the other comforter.
The Holy Spirit is the one who came to those Jesus promised Him and who reminded them of all that Jesus had said to them. (which Baha'u'llah certainly did not do)

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Spirit of truth is a spirit, the Holy Spirit. A spirit cannot testify of Jesus, only a man can do that.

Yes the Holy Spirit testifies to us that Jesus message is real.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

You cannot just cherry pick one verse and try to understand what it means out of the context of all the other verses.

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jesus was the comforter and that is why He said “I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.” Jesus did not say I will send the Holy Spirit to you, He said I will come to you

Jesus said I will come to you because Jesus is in the Holy Spirit along with the Father.
John 14:22 Judas (not Iscariot) asked Him, “Lord, why are You going to reveal Yourself to us and not to the world?” 23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Baha’u’llah was another Comforter.

Baha'u'llah is not living with you forever and Baha'u'llah did not come to the disciples Jesus was making the promise to. The other comforter was the Holy Spirit who is the Comforter.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It is the Holy Spirit that teaches all things through Baha’u’llah.

No the Holy Spirit is the Comforter. The Bible does not say that the Holy Spirit teaches through the comforter.
And anyway, Baha'u'llah did not come to anyone for almost 2000 years and certainly did not come to those disciples Jesus was promising nor to any Christians to comfort them and teach them. The Holy Spirit, the Comforter did that.

Jesus never promised to return to earth.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Yes Jesus promised to return to earth and that means that the passages you are using to deny the 20 places where the Bible tells us Jesus will return, are taken out of context and twisted.
John14:1 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

I never said that. I said that the Spirit comes after the signs of the end, as in the prophecy of Joel.

That is not what is in the prophecy of Joel which seems to be saying that the Spirit is given, the signs come and then the great and terrible day of the Lord will come. That is the Christian interpretation.
You misread the prophecy and also you say that these days are the last day, the days before the Day of the Lord. That is called contradiction.
Are these the last days or were the days before the coming of Baha'u'llah the last days or what? You seem confused about this.

 

[Brian2]

All you have is a belief and expectations whereas the Baha’is have the actual fulfillment of the prophecies.

No you don't.

 

[Brian2]

Quote Peter saying "Joel was speaking about that Pentecost." Otherwise it is just your personal opinion, so don’t state it as a fact.

Acts 2:15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 ‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

........ a spirit cannot testify of anything because it cannot speak.

The Holy Spirit spoke to and through the OT prophets. The Holy Spirit testifies to our spirit. (Romans 8:16)

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Okay, you say the Lamb is The Bab and that God comes after to wipe away the tears? So you are saying that the Lamb, The Bab, is the manifestation/forerunner to God? And I'm supposed to remember this is the Day of God? Still, nothing specific about a second manifestation that comes after The Lamb?

Why did the Bab write this:


"This is a letter from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting, unto God, the Almighty, the Best-Beloved, to affirm that the Bayán and such as bear allegiance to it are but a present from me unto Thee and to express my undoubting faith that there is no God but Thee, that the kingdoms of Creation and Revelation are Thine, that no one can attain anything save by Thy power and that He Whom Thou hast raised up is but Thy servant and Thy Testimony. I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: “Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayán in the Day of the Latter Resurrection..."

The Bab


It seems, what the Bab means, is, this is a letter from the Bab (God) to Baha'u'llah (God).

 

[CG Didymus]

Why did the Bab write this:


"This is a letter from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting, unto God, the Almighty, the Best-Beloved, to affirm that the Bayán and such as bear allegiance to it are but a present from me unto Thee and to express my undoubting faith that there is no God but Thee, that the kingdoms of Creation and Revelation are Thine, that no one can attain anything save by Thy power and that He Whom Thou hast raised up is but Thy servant and Thy Testimony. I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: “Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayán in the Day of the Latter Resurrection..."

The Bab


It seems, what the Bab means, is, this is a letter from the Bab (God) to Baha'u'llah (God).

But we know they are not God. So is it supposedly a letter from God given to The Bab for Baha'u'llah? And still with all these supposed names. They are not those men's names. They are titles they took on. And that is something a lot of "Christ's" have done.

But this thread is about what the Baha'is believe about the Bible. As far as I can tell Baha'is don't believe it is literal and is not historically accurate. That Baha'is believe stories like the resurrection and appearances of Jesus are not to be taken literally but symbolically. Baha'is do take one or two verses and say that these are prophecies that have been fulfilled by The Bab or Baha'u'llah. With this they can accept or reject anything they want in the Bible. With this they don't have to take into account the context of what the verses they use might be talking about. Is this accurate and did I leave anything out?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But we know they are not God. ....

This:


"Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. "

Bahaullah

 

[CG Didymus]

This:


"Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. "

Bahaullah

Yet, we know that The Bab and Baha'u'llah were not God. So wouldn't it be truer to say that they are not God?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Yet, we know that The Bab and Baha'u'llah were not God. So wouldn't it be truer to say that they are not God?

Perhaps it could be said that God is everything. Including The Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Like a cell in your body that speaks to a group of cells telling them we are all part of man. Man is all around us.


Or it could be said that when a man speaks the word of God then it is God speaking through that man. He is connected to God.

He is a man.
But he is God.
He is part man - part God.

Like a father and child bond.
But more like a marriage.

For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5

The bible also mentions submitting and obeying the husband.

 

[CG Didymus]

Perhaps it could be said that God is everything. Including The Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Like a cell in your body that speaks to a group of cells telling them we are all part of man. Man is all around us.


Or it could be said that when a man speaks the word of God then it is God speaking through that man. He is connected to God.

He is a man.
But he is God.
He is part man - part God.

Like a father and child bond.
But more like a marriage.

For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5

The bible also mentions submitting and obeying the husband.

Baha'is themselves say that The Bab and Baha'u'llah are not God. But they say that they are more than ordinary humans. They are manifestations of God... like a perfectly polished mirror, they reflect God. My argument against that is that they say that Adam, Noah, Abraham, and of course Moses were all manifestations. As far as I know the Bible doesn't make any of those people out to be "perfectly" polished mirrors.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Baha'is themselves say that The Bab and Baha'u'llah are not God. But they say that they are more than ordinary humans. They are manifestations of God... like a perfectly polished mirror, they reflect God. My argument against that is that they say that Adam, Noah, Abraham, and of course Moses were all manifestations. As far as I know the Bible doesn't make any of those people out to be "perfectly" polished mirrors.

Sounds a bit like talking around an answer to a question. So vague it could mean anything. Some are very good at it. They can even make other people think that they got an answer. Because its an answer that is open to interpretation.

If someone can't explain something further in simple ways that even a small child might understand, then that person doesn't really know what they are talking about.


I'm not exactly sure what they mean by manifestations and perfectly polished mirrors reflecting.

But I do think some people have become connected to God.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is the perishable which puts on the imperishable and the mortal which puts on immortality. Our physical bodies are changed to spiritual bodies, but not to spirits. There is no need for a resurrection and that change if it is just the soul that carries on forever after this life.

Paul says that the mortal will put on immortality, but he does not say that our physical bodies will be changed into spiritual bodies. There is a need for a body for the soul to express itself through, so just as we needed a physical body in this physical world we will need a spiritual body in the spiritual world. Paul differentiated natural bodies from spiritual bodies when he said “For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.” He did not say that natural bodies become spiritual bodies.

1 Corinthians 15

42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever.

(42) What Paul is saying is that our physical bodies will be buried in the ground when we die, but then our sprit (soul) will be raised and live forever. When we die, our spirit (soul) leaves our body and it passes from one world (the physical world) into another (the spiritual world), and it lives forever in the spiritual world because the soul is immortal (not subject to death like the physical body).

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

Death of man is merely his passing of the spirit (soul) from one world into another and that is why in the Bible “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. The physical body will be planted in the ground when we die but our spiritual body will be raised to live forever

43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

(43-44) What Paul is saying here is that the physical body is weak and broken, but the spiritual body will be raised in strength and glory. The physical body is the natural human body that is buried. Paul is differentiating natural bodies from spiritual bodies, saying that they are not the same.

In case you are interested, I went through 1 Corinthians 15:35-58 that pertain to The Resurrection Body and explained what I think every verse means and I posted it to Skywalker. #515 Trailblazer

I would have to agree with you really. At the same time I do not believe we are just spirits. As I said, there is no need for a resurrection if that is the case. A physical body which has put on imperishability and immortality certainly is not normal physical when it is transformed.

However, as I explained above, Paul never said that the physical body was transformed and became a spiritual body; he said that there are two different kinds of bodies, natural body and spiritual body, not a hybrid physical-spiritual body.

I get to the point sometimes in our discussions about this subject when I wonder what we are arguing about because it seems you should be able to accept what I said there, but for some reason you still want to deny the resurrection of Jesus into an imperishable and immortal spiritual body.

I have finally figured out the reason you cannot understand what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 15. It is because you have been taught that when Jesus rose from the dead He got a glorified physical body, but what really happened is that Jesus got an imperishable and immortal spiritual body that was not physical. That could easily explain why people could have seen Jesus after He resurrected, because that spiritual body is not invisible and Jesus could have easily have made it so it looked and felt just like the body He died in since Jesus could perform any miracle. That is just a theory that could explain the resurrection stories; nobody can ever know what really happened. One thing I know is that Jesus got a spiritual body just like everyone else will get after they die and His body may be more glorified than ordinary human bodies, which is congruent with what Baha’u’llah wrote:

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

The form that best befits the immortality of Jesus and is worthy His celestial habitation would indeed be a glorified body.

True they are not the same kind of body, they are then imperishable and immortal but are the old bodies which have been redeemed and transformed.
Of course those verses refer to what will happen after our physical body dies.

That fits with what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15, that our new spiritual bodies will be raised in glory, raised in strength.

43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

Redemption means to purchase back and in this instance (Romans 8:23) it means that our dead bodies (along with the rest of our being) have been purchased back from the grave and corruption and mortality by the blood of Jesus.

I do not believe that has anything to do with the physical body. The physical body once dead remains dead.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The redemption of our body means it become a spiritual body that can never die or commit sins. It will no longer be able to sin because only a physical body can commit sins.

Yes I can see. A couple of redefinitions of terms and the passage is explained away to those with the confirmation bias needed to not see that the passage is about the resurrection of the dead which happens when Jesus returns.

It is about the resurrection of those who were spiritually dead. Physical bodies will never rise from graves. These verses were misunderstood from day one.

The disciples of Jesus certainly did not think the way you are explaining when they wrote such things.
The passage opens this way:

1Thess 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.

The rest of mankind grieves for the dead as if there is no hope of resurrection.

I do not know how the disciples understood these, nobody knows, but it is obvious they are about the spiritually dead and the spiritually resurrection because the physical body once dead remains dead and it is of no use to us in the spiritual world. These who sleep in death are these who are spiritually asleep because the dead are dead, they are not just sleeping.

 

[Trailblazer]

If the Advocate is the Holy Spirit, then so is the Spirit of Truth.

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.

The verse does not say “the Advocate which is the Holy Spirit,” I interpret that to mean that Baha’u’llah was the Advocate to whom the Father sent the Holy Spirit in Jesus’ name and the Advocate taught all things and reminded you of what Jesus taught.

Jesus was the Advocate (Comforter) who brought the Holy Spirit and Baha’u’llah was another Advocate (Comforter) who brought the Holy Spirit. That is followed by the verse about the Spirit of truth so we know that Baha’u’llah was also the Spirit of Truth.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I found proof that Jesus was the Comforter embedded in this same chapter when I was trying to explain something to another Christian. Below is Jesus talking about Himself saying He will not leave you comfortless, and that means He was the Comforter. Then Jesus says He will come to you and He was referring to another Comforter (as per John 14:16) and that was Baha’u’llah. We know that it was not Jesus who would come to you because in the next verse Jesus says the world would see Him no more; so it was the spirit of Jesus who returned in Baha’u’llah, it was never the same body of Jesus that was slated to return.

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

The last days is just before Jesus returns, and He returns on the last day.
John 6:39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

You are correct in saying that the last days is just before Jesus returns, because the last days is the same as the time of the end which starts when Christ returns.

Jesus was not the Holy Spirit, true, the Holy Spirit was another comforter.
Baha'u'llah cannot be the other comforter promised by Jesus since the Holy Spirit is the other comforter.

I just straightened that out above.

The Holy Spirit is the one who came to those Jesus promised Him and who reminded them of all that Jesus had said to them. (which Baha'u'llah certainly did not do)

No, It was the Comforter (Baha’u’llah) who brought the Holy Spirit and reminded us of all that Jesus had said.

Yes the Holy Spirit testifies to us that Jesus message is real.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

But it does not teach all things and remind us of what Jesus taught; Baha’u’llah did that.

And anyway, Baha'u'llah did not come to anyone for almost 2000 years and certainly did not come to those disciples Jesus was promising nor to any Christians to comfort them and teach them. The Holy Spirit, the Comforter did that.

The New Testament was a testament for all Christians and it was written in such a way that it could be used to identify the Comforter when he came. There is no reason to think it was addressed to the disciples except when it stipulated that.

Yes Jesus promised to return to earth and that means that the passages you are using to deny the 20 places where the Bible tells us Jesus will return, are taken out of context and twisted.
John14:1 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Show me just one verse where Jesus promised to return.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not referring to His physical body coming again. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world: (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11).

Since Jesus said He was no more in the world and the world would see Him no more we know that when He said "and receive you unto myself" He was not talking about His physical body, but rather He was referring to His spirit.

The spirit of Jesus did come again, when Christ returned. Jesus promised not to leave us comfortless and then He said He would send the Comforter. The Comforter and that refers to the person who would be the return of Christ. So when Jesus said I will come again, He meant He would send His spirit in the person of the Comforter (Baha'u'llah) who was the return of Christ that Jesus promised. So when Jesus said I will come again, He meant He would send His Spirit, and we see that in the verses that follow in John 14.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

"and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” is referring to heaven, not earth, because Jesus was going to heaven to prepare a place in heaven, not on earth. Jesus was preparing a place in heaven so they could be with him in heaven.

John 14:3 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the New Testament so it is no wonder the Bible commentaries do not agree on what it means.

That is not what is in the prophecy of Joel which seems to be saying that the Spirit is given, the signs come and then the great and terrible day of the Lord will come. That is the Christian interpretation.
You misread the prophecy and also you say that these days are the last day, the days before the Day of the Lord. That is called contradiction.
Are these the last days or were the days before the coming of Baha'u'llah the last days or what? You seem confused about this.

I explained that above. The last days means the same as the End of Days. They begin when Christ returns, and they continue for many generations to come, but I do not know how long.

A Baha'i Perspective on the End of Days | HuffPost

 

[Trailblazer]

No you don't.

Yes we do.
Many of them are in this book.

Thief in the Night by William Sears