Bahai's and the Bible. Errant or Inerrant. Holistic or cherry picking?

[WonderingWorrier]

Do you think you can prove that 1844 is not when Christ returned by using the Bible?

Can I prove 1914 is not when Christ returned by using the bible?

"1914 is key to the existence of Jehovah’s Witnesses. 1914 is said to signify the end of the Gentile Times, commencement of Jesus heavenly rulership and start of the Last Days. Jesus subsequently chose the Watchtower organization in 1919 to be his sole means of salvation before the battle of Armageddon".


"The interpretation goes as follows;

• Cutting down the tree represents the destruction of the Kingdom of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar in 607 B.C.
• The “seven times” constitute 2,520 days, or seven 360 day years
• Each day signifies a year, converting 2,520 days to 2,520 years
• 2,520 years from 607 B.C. ends in 1914 A.D".

1914 - fulfillment of Bible prophecy? - JW.Support



"At the risk of appearing to talk nonsense I tell you that the National Socialist movement will go on for 1,000 years! ... Don't forget how people laughed at me 15 years ago when I declared that one day I would govern Germany. They laugh now, just as foolishly, when I declare that I shall remain in power!"

Adolf Hitler to a British correspondent in Berlin, June 1934
Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

Can I prove 1914 is not when Christ returned by using the bible?

"1914 is key to the existence of Jehovah’s Witnesses. 1914 is said to signify the end of the Gentile Times, commencement of Jesus heavenly rulership and start of the Last Days. Jesus subsequently chose the Watchtower organization in 1919 to be his sole means of salvation before the battle of Armageddon".

"The interpretation goes as follows;

• Cutting down the tree represents the destruction of the Kingdom of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar in 607 B.C.
• The “seven times” constitute 2,520 days, or seven 360 day years
• Each day signifies a year, converting 2,520 days to 2,520 years
• 2,520 years from 607 B.C. ends in 1914 A.D".

1914 - fulfillment of Bible prophecy? - JW.Support

Precisely, and I have been saying this over and over and over again, as it is a logical point.
You can make any year become the year that Jesus will return by cherry picking certain verses and interpreting them to mean what you want them to mean in order to make them come out to the year you want to believe Christ has returned/will return. As you said in your post to CG Didymus:

"If 1844 is the answer they are looking for then they can easily find prophecy calculation that fits and adopt it. They can show it as evidence but that doesn't necessarily confirm what they are saying. You can find calculations based on the bible for any year that you want to look for."

Of course that means that these calculation do not prove anything, so conversely they do not disprove anything regarding when Christ will return. There are much better ways to determine if Christ has actually returned than using the Daniel 2300 year prophecy, as I have been telling CG for eons of time, but one cannot stop a man on mission when he thinks that mission will lead to the magic solution as to whether the Bab and Baha'u'llah were who they claimed to be.

I consider these calculations to be an exercise in futility, which is why I have refused to participate .

 

[CG Didymus]

The question I've been asking Baha'is. In context Daniel 8 is about a goat and a ram. Then it says which empires the goat and ram represent. One of them is the Greek empire. One of their leaders puts a stop to the daily sacrifice. And, from what I've read Antiochus did put a stop to the daily sacrifice. And we know when that happened. So, I'm wondering, why doesn't the prophecy start then? In fact, we know when the Temple got rededicated. But, it is not 2300 days in-between. But 7th Day Adventists and Baha'is go all the way back to 456BC to the decree to rebuild Jerusalem? Which, to me, has nothing to do with the context of a Greek leader putting a stop to the daily sacrifice.

This is the question... Why start the prophecy in 456BC? Is that when the daily sacrifice was stopped? Even in a symbolic way?

If 1844 is the answer they are looking for then they can easily find prophecy calculation that fits and adopt it.

You can make any year become the year that Jesus will return by cherry picking certain verses and interpreting them to mean what you want them to mean

 

[WonderingWorrier]

This is the question... Why start the prophecy in 456BC?

Reaching 456BC by using two different bible verses:

Rebuild Jerusalem:

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. Daniel 9:25


Two thousand three hundred days:

And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Daniel 8:14



"Briefly, the point is that he fixes a period of 2,300 years, for according to the text of the Torah each day is one year. Therefore, from the date of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the advent of the Báb there are 1,844 years, and if 456 years are added to this number it makes 2,300 years".
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)

 

[WonderingWorrier]

There are much better ways to determine if Christ has actually returned than using the Daniel 2300 year prophecy, as I have been telling CG for eons of time, but one cannot stop a man on mission when he thinks that mission will lead to the magic solution as to whether the Bab and Baha'u'llah were who they claimed to be.

So why can't your better ways to determine actually lead to a solution?

Please explain.

 

[Trailblazer]

So why can't your better ways to determine actually lead to a solution?

Please explain.

A solution to what?

Please explain.

 

[CG Didymus]

Reaching 456BC by using two different bible verses:

Rebuild Jerusalem:

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. Daniel 9:25


Two thousand three hundred days:

And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Daniel 8:14



"Briefly, the point is that he fixes a period of 2,300 years, for according to the text of the Torah each day is one year. Therefore, from the date of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the advent of the Báb there are 1,844 years, and if 456 years are added to this number it makes 2,300 years".
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library (bahai.org)

Still, what does the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 456BC have to do with Daniel 8? Did the daily sacrifice get stopped then? Did the rebellion that causes desolation happen then? Did the sanctuary get thrown down then? Daniel 8 even says who the goats are, they are Greeks. Did the Greeks rule in 456BC? I know why Baha'is and 7th Day Adventists want it to be from 456BC to 1844. But why would anyone else?

Daniel 8:8 The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated”...

21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.​

 

[CG Didymus]

There are much better ways to determine if Christ has actually returned than using the Daniel 2300 year prophecy, as I have been telling CG for eons of time, but one cannot stop a man on mission when he thinks that mission will lead to the magic solution as to whether the Bab and Baha'u'llah were who they claimed to be.

I consider these calculations to be an exercise in futility, which is why I have refused to participate .

Refused to participate? Or, refuse to examine what Daniel 8 is saying? Like you say, you're the wrong one to ask. How many times have I quoted Daniel 8. All you have to do is read it. You don't even have to open a Bible. And you know there is a reverse mission, if something contradicts Baha'i beliefs, and you don't know how to answer it, then ignore it and maybe it will go away. But no problem WonderingWorrier is handling it. And then that other thing? Really? Man on a mission? Since 2012 I've had almost 7500 posts. And you've had more than 20,000 since 2017. You're way more into this than I will ever be.

 

[Trailblazer]

How many times have I quoted Daniel 8. All you have to do is read it. You don't even have to open a Bible.

I gave read Daniel 8, but that is not what you have been asking me to do. But carry on, maybe you will figure that out someday, FWIW.

The life and mission of Baha'u'llah is written all throughout the prophecies in the Old Testament, and the is drop dead obvious to anyone who knows Baha'i history.

The important part of Daniel 8 is where it begins, Daniel 8:2. That verse sets the stage for the remainder of the chapter, which is about Baha'u'llah.

Daniel 8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

The Lord was prophesied to set His throne in Elam, from which the Messiah would rule.
Elam is modern-day Persia, where Baha’u’llah was born.

Jeremiah 49:38 And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the LORD.

When that verse was recorded Elam existed and the verses for the coming of the Lord refer to the latter days.

Jeremiah 49:39 But it shall come to pass in the latter days, that I will bring again the captivity of Elam, saith the LORD.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I gave read Daniel 8, but that is not what you have been asking me to do. But carry on, maybe you will figure that out someday, FWIW.

The life and mission of Baha'u'llah is written all throughout the prophecies in the Old Testament, and the is drop dead obvious to anyone who knows Baha'i history.

The important part of Daniel 8 is where it begins, Daniel 8:2. That verse sets the stage for the remainder of the chapter, which is about Baha'u'llah.

Daniel 8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

The Lord was prophesied to set His throne in Elam, from which the Messiah would rule.
Elam is modern-day Persia, where Baha’u’llah was born.

Jeremiah 49:38 And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the LORD.

When that verse was recorded Elam existed and the verses for the coming of the Lord refer to the latter days.

Jeremiah 49:39 But it shall come to pass in the latter days, that I will bring again the captivity of Elam, saith the LORD.

View attachment 47119
View attachment 47120

These places are to be the first place that Baha'is will go on pilgrimage to, before going to Haifa. Millions will be going on this pilgrimage each year.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Refused to participate? Or, refuse to examine what Daniel 8 is saying? Like you say, you're the wrong one to ask. How many times have I quoted Daniel 8. All you have to do is read it. You don't even have to open a Bible. And you know there is a reverse mission, if something contradicts Baha'i beliefs, and you don't know how to answer it, then ignore it and maybe it will go away. But no problem WonderingWorrier is handling it. And then that other thing? Really? Man on a mission? Since 2012 I've had almost 7500 posts. And you've had more than 20,000 since 2017. You're way more into this than I will ever be.

CG, did you ever choose to read the Kitab-i-Iqan?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The life and mission of Baha'u'llah is written all throughout the prophecies in the Old Testament, and the is drop dead obvious to anyone who knows Baha'i history.

It is amazing how much of the Bible is dedicated to the praise of the 'Glory of God' Baha'u'llah, the Father.

The Bible exists to guide us to this day, the 'Day of God'.

I wonder who people wait for if it is not the Message of Baha'u'llah?

Of course, that is my opinion.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

It is amazing how much of the Bible is dedicated to the praise of the 'Glory of God' Baha'u'llah, the Father.

The Bible exists to guide us to this day, the 'Day of God'.

I wonder who people wait for if it is not the Message of Baha'u'llah?

Of course, that is my opinion.

Regards Tony

Of course, that is also my opinion as well as my belief.

So let's just say this is the Day of God, Christ has returned and the Messiah has come. You'd think that at least religious people would care about that since that is what they have been long awaiting. But sadly, there are only a few of us who care enough to determine if that is indeed true.

"If Baha'u'llah truly is the Promised One then His appearance is one of the greatest events of human history. Are Baha'u'llah's claim true? How can we know for certain? Just take a look at some of the proofs and prophecies... and then decide for yourself."

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

But if people are attached to the older religions, they do not want to know if Baha'u'llah truly is the Promised One, even if it might be true. For Jews that would mean they would have to give up the Messiah they have made in their own image according to how they interpret their scriptures and for Christians it would mean they would have to give up their belief that Jesus is still alive and will return someday. I cannot say what Muslims would have to give up.

So, in my opinion, this is the primary reason that religious people do not take the claims of Baha'u''llah seriously. It is all about psychology and "I want." I want my religion to be the one true religion, but if those Baha'is are right, then I would have to give up what I want because they say that all the revealed religions are true.

Another reason is ego. That can be stated as "I know" Baha'u'llah is not the Promised One so why should I take His claims seriously? And even if some people give His claims serious consideration, they nitpick and always find reasons not to believe.

Those two factors explain why so few people find the narrow gate and enter through it...

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Still, what does the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 456BC have to do with Daniel 8? Did the daily sacrifice get stopped then? Did the rebellion that causes desolation happen then? Did the sanctuary get thrown down then? Daniel 8 even says who the goats are, they are Greeks. Did the Greeks rule in 456BC? I know why Baha'is and 7th Day Adventists want it to be from 456BC to 1844. But why would anyone else?

By saying one prophecy began at exactly the same time as the other prophecy.

Then you use one prophecy to connect the rebuilding of Jerusalem to 456BC and the other prophecy to add 2300 years and arrive at 1844.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

A solution to what?

Please explain.

I'm wanting to know why you said this:

There are much better ways to determine if Christ has actually returned than using the Daniel 2300 year prophecy, as I have been telling CG for eons of time, but one cannot stop a man on mission when he thinks that mission will lead to the magic solution as to whether the Bab and Baha'u'llah were who they claimed to be.

You say there are better ways to determine if Christ has actually returned. I would like to hear them.



You also say this:

"as I have been telling CG for eons of time, but one cannot stop a man on mission when he thinks that mission will lead to the magic solution as to whether the Bab and Baha'u'llah were who they claimed to be".

So it sounds a bit like after all this time the solution you mention has still not been reached. Why do you think that is?

Please explain.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm wanting to know why you said this:

You say there are better ways to determine if Christ has actually returned. I would like to hear them.

The way to determine that is to investigate the claims of Baha'u'llah and the evidence that supports His claims.

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence that establishes the truth of His claims. More specifically, Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with 106 the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

For more detail as to how to go about this investigation please refer to the following post:

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

You also say this:

"as I have been telling CG for eons of time, but one cannot stop a man on mission when he thinks that mission will lead to the magic solution as to whether the Bab and Baha'u'llah were who they claimed to be".

So it sounds a bit like after all this time the solution you mention has still not been reached. Why do you think that is?

Please explain.

I do not think a solution has been reached because CG has been trying to use the fulfillment of Bible prophecies as the sole criterion by which to determine if Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be. That is not what Baha'u'llah told us to do, as noted above. Baha'u'llah does fulfill those prophecies but anyone can interpret them to suit themselves in an effort to deny He fulfilled them. I consider this a game and I'm not playing. If people really want to know if Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies and how He fulfilled them, they can determine that, but if all they want to do is argue, I am not into that, not anymore.

 

[CG Didymus]

By saying one prophecy began at exactly the same time as the other prophecy.

Then you use one prophecy to connect the rebuilding of Jerusalem to 456BC and the other prophecy to add 2300 years and arrive at 1844.

Okay then, what happened in 1844? I know what Baha'is say what happened. Do you agree?

 

[CG Didymus]

I gave read Daniel 8, but that is not what you have been asking me to do. But carry on, maybe you will figure that out someday

Whatever you think I've been asking... this is what I've been asking.

Still, what does the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 456BC have to do with Daniel 8? Did the daily sacrifice get stopped then? Did the rebellion that causes desolation happen then? Did the sanctuary get thrown down then? Daniel 8 even says who the goats are, they are Greeks. Did the Greeks rule in 456BC? I know why Baha'is and 7th Day Adventists want it to be from 456BC to 1844. But why would anyone else?
Daniel 8:8 The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up toward the four winds of heaven.

9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated”...

21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

I do not think a solution has been reached because CG has been trying to use the fulfillment of Bible prophecies as the sole criterion by which to determine if Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be.

So, for Baha'is, fulfillment of prophecy is not an important criterion? And it is so unimportant that if anyone questions the Baha'i interpretation of the prophecies, they are making something out of nothing. Great, just great.

 

[CG Didymus]

I consider this a game and I'm not playing. If people really want to know if Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies and how He fulfilled them, they can determine that, but if all they want to do is argue, I am not into that, not anymore.

So people can read what Bill Sears and other Baha'is have said. That should be good enough. If, though, they question those interpretations made by Baha'is, that's not right. That's just game playing. Okay, great, just great.

CG, did you ever choose to read the Kitab-i-Iqan?

Regards Tony

Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call. Each day they inflicted on His blessed person such pain and suffering that no one believed He could survive. How frequently they denied Him, how malevolently they hinted their suspicion against Him! Thus it hath been revealed: “And as often as a company of His people passed by Him, they derided Him. To them He said: ‘Though ye scoff at us now, we will scoff at you hereafter even as ye scoff at us. In the end ye shall know.’”3 Long afterward, He several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled. This caused a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, and to this testify the records of the best-known books.
​

There is no mention of a flood. So is the Bible story fictional? Or symbolic? And this story of Noah is recorded in of some "best-known" books? Which ones? And I didn't see any thing about Krishna and Buddha. Why not? Or did I just miss it?

 

[Trailblazer]

So people can read what Bill Sears and other Baha'is have said. That should be good enough. If, though, they question those interpretations made by Baha'is, that's not right. That's just game playing. Okay, great, just great.

You can question any interpretation you want to and come up with your own interpretation, but you cannot change what actually happened in the world when Baha'u'llah came. Why argue with what Sears wrote if it matches up with what the prophecy says will happen?

There is no mention of a flood. So is the Bible story fictional? Or symbolic?

That is covered in Gleanings.

“Mention hath been made in certain books of a deluge which caused all that existed on earth, historical records as well as other things, to be destroyed. Moreover, many cataclysms have occurred which have effaced the traces of many events. Furthermore, among existing historical records differences are to be found, and each of the various peoples of the world hath its own account of the age of the earth and of its history. Some trace their history as far back as eight thousand years, others as far as twelve thousand years. To any one that hath read the book of Jük it is clear and evident how much the accounts given by the various books have differed.

Please God thou wilt turn thine eyes towards the Most Great Revelation, and entirely disregard these conflicting tales and traditions.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 174-175