Bahai's and the Bible. Errant or Inerrant. Holistic or cherry picking?

[firedragon]

But did Muhammad claim to be the Spirit of Truth, as Baha'u'llah did?

No.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I was speaking about "spirit of truth", and you are quoting "Spirit of God"/

The 'Spirit of Truth' is given many forms and names.

It all refers to the Holy Spirit from God, that becomes the 'Self of God', the Messengers.

I did a quick read at lunchtime. But I ask, how is not the Spirit of God, not the Same as the Spirit of Truth as God is all Truth?

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

The 'Spirit of Truth' is given many forms and names.

It all refers to the Holy Spirit from God, that becomes the 'Self of God', the Messengers.

I did a quick read at lunchtime. But I ask, how is not the Spirit of God, not the Same as the Spirit of Truth as God is all Truth?

Regards Tony

That is not how Bahaullah speaks of the Spirit of truth in his letter. His reference to the Spirit of truth is specifically referring to the Johannine Parakleetus. In the Kithab I iqan he refers to "the spirit of God that breathed into it". The prophets were "moved by the spirit of God". None of that means "muhahammed was also a spirit of truth that the Gospel of John is speaking of".

 

[Trailblazer]

The 'Spirit of Truth' is given many forms and names.

It all refers to the Holy Spirit from God, that becomes the 'Self of God', the Messengers.

I did a quick read at lunchtime. But I ask, how is not the Spirit of God, not the Same as the Spirit of Truth as God is all Truth?

I believe that the Spirit of Truth is a title that belongs exclusively to Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah refers to Jesus as the Spirit of God, whereas Baha'u'llah implies that He is the Spirit of Truth who will guide us into all truth.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, "I go away, and come again unto you"? (John 14:28). Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: "When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth." And yet behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies. (John 16:13).” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 191

Jesus did not guide us to all truth even if He knew all truth..... Rather, Jesus said:

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is not how Bahaullah speaks of the Spirit of truth in his letter. His reference to the Spirit of truth is specifically referring to the Johannine Parakleetus. In the Kithab I iqan he refers to "the spirit of God that breathed into it". The prophets were "moved by the spirit of God". None of that means "muhahammed was also a spirit of truth that the Gospel of John is speaking of".

My reflections on what Baha'u'llah offered is that though some Titles are Specific to a Revelation, those Titles belong to all the Messengers.

Note what Baha'u'llah said prior to 'Spirit of God'

"..... When the light of Qur’ánic Revelation was kindled within the chamber of Muḥammad’s holy heart, He passed upon the people the verdict of the Last Day, the verdict of resurrection, of judgment, of life, and of death. Thereupon the standards of revolt were hoisted, and the doors of derision opened...."

So according to Baha'u'llah, Muhammad passed on the verdict of the 'Last Day'. Now if we look at prophecy, in the last day, the Spirit of Truth is also applicable.

I will look further tonight,but have a look how this verse ends from Baha'u'llah.

"..... Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood, and are honored with the mantle of glory. Thus hath Muḥammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed: “I am all the Prophets.” Likewise, He saith: “I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.” Similar statements have been made by Imám ‘Alí. Sayings such as these, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God’s immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of Divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the Scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the Day Springs of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: “Our Cause is but One.” Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same. Likewise, the Imáms of the Muḥammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said: “Muḥammad is our first, Muḥammad is our last, Muḥammad our all.”....... "

I see Baha'u'llah is lifting us above the veils of Names and Titles.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe that the Spirit of Truth is a title that belongs exclusively to Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah refers to Jesus as the Spirit of God, whereas Baha'u'llah implies that He is the Spirit of Truth who will guide us into all truth.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, "I go away, and come again unto you"? (John 14:28). Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: "When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth." And yet behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies. (John 16:13).” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 191

Jesus did not guide us to all truth even if He knew all truth..... Rather, Jesus said:

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

I do not see Baha'u'llah claims Exclusive Titles and that the 'Spirit of Truth' is applicable to all Messengers

I see the Message of Baha'u'llah is all embracing, allowing us to embrace all Messengers without distinction, but in the Light of the 'Glory of God'.

Of course that is my opinion of what I see in the Baha'i Writings.

On the other hand we live in an age that the promises was to guide us unto all truth.

When I see how many writings have been lost, many 10's of thousands of verses, as mankind was not ready, then we know we are not guided to all truth, we are guided to the needs of this age. Which is all we can handle.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I do not see Baha'u'llah claims Exclusive Titles and that the 'Spirit of Truth' is applicable to all Messengers

I see the Message of Baha'u'llah is all embracing, allowing us to embrace all Messengers without distinction, but in the Light of the 'Glory of God'.

“The Bearers of the Trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Revealers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness.

These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 50-51

“The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 52

 

[Trailblazer]

My reflections on what Baha'u'llah offered is that though some Titles are Specific to a Revelation, those Titles belong to all the Messengers.

How can all the following Titles belong to all the Messengers?

“To Him Jesus Christ had referred as the “Prince of this world,” as the “Comforter” Who will “reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment,” as the “Spirit of Truth” Who “will guide you into all truth,” Who “shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak,” as the “Lord of the Vineyard,” and as the “Son of Man” Who “shall come in the glory of His Father” “in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,” with “all the holy angels” about Him, and “all nations” gathered before His throne. To Him the Author of the Apocalypse had alluded as the “Glory of God,” as “Alpha and Omega,” “the Beginning and the End,” “the First and the Last.” Identifying His Revelation with the “third woe,” he, moreover, had extolled His Law as “a new heaven and a new earth,” as the “Tabernacle of God,” as the “Holy City,” as the “New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” To His Day Jesus Christ Himself had referred as “the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory.” To the hour of His advent St. Paul had alluded as the hour of the “last trump,” the “trump of God,” whilst St. Peter had spoken of it as the “Day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.” His Day he, furthermore, had described as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy Prophets since the world began.” God Passes By, pp. 95-96

 

[TransmutingSoul]

“The Bearers of the Trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Revealers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness.

These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 50-51

“The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 52

It is not the station pertaining to the world I talk about Susan.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How can all the following Titles belong to all the Messengers?

“To Him Jesus Christ had referred as the “Prince of this world,” as the “Comforter” Who will “reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment,” as the “Spirit of Truth” Who “will guide you into all truth,” Who “shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak,” as the “Lord of the Vineyard,” and as the “Son of Man” Who “shall come in the glory of His Father” “in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,” with “all the holy angels” about Him, and “all nations” gathered before His throne. To Him the Author of the Apocalypse had alluded as the “Glory of God,” as “Alpha and Omega,” “the Beginning and the End,” “the First and the Last.” Identifying His Revelation with the “third woe,” he, moreover, had extolled His Law as “a new heaven and a new earth,” as the “Tabernacle of God,” as the “Holy City,” as the “New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” To His Day Jesus Christ Himself had referred as “the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory.” To the hour of His advent St. Paul had alluded as the hour of the “last trump,” the “trump of God,” whilst St. Peter had spoken of it as the “Day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.” His Day he, furthermore, had described as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy Prophets since the world began.” God Passes By, pp. 95-96

I see in the Writings that the Mesengers are One, the Same Holy Spirit, they are all that given Word of God.

"O Children of Vainglory! For a fleeting sovereignty ye have abandoned My imperishable dominion, and have adorned yourselves with the gay livery of the world and made of it your boast. By My beauty! All will I gather beneath the one-colored covering of the dust and efface all these diverse colors save them that choose My own, and that is purging from every color. – The Hidden Words, pp. 47-48.

To me this is the Oneness of God and when we pursue this oneness we see all Names and Attributes as pure light, light that comes from the same source and not refracted.

Here is a Provisional translation of part of the Tablet of Colours

"O servant of God! The One Who is the Master of utterance and meaning, and colors all created things, sayeth: Meditate on that which We have revealed aforetime: “the color of God, and who is better than God in coloring?” (Qur’an 2:138) The purpose of this color hath not been and will not be colors of metallic pigments. Nay, it is the coloring of the pure hearts with the color of God, and this is the sanctification of all men from the diverse colors of the world. Strive thou that thou mayest excel in this art and adornest men with the divine color. -from a Tablet of Baha’u’llah, provisional translation by Necati Alkan

Regards Tony

 

[Brian2]

Correct and Baha'u'llah does Testify for Jesus, this is but one of many;

"... Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.. "

So confirmed, Baha’u’llah passes that Test.

Regards Tony

I'm not sure how that answered my post. The word in it that looked like testify was test, test the spirits. So I tested the spirit behind Baha'u'llah and found it is not God because it disagrees with the Bible and changes the whole story and rips bits out of it and does not take what belongs to Jesus and disclose it to us, he just takes what belongs to Jesus and says it actually belongs to him.

John 16:13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. 14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you.

What you were answering was:
>>>We are to test those spirits and see if they conform to the word of God or not.
(1John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.)<<<

It is interesting to ponder actually whether Baha'u'llah does confess that Jesus the Christ has come in the flesh or not. That means whether Jesus the Christ became a man or not. Baha'i seems to teach that the Christ is actually a spirit which passes from one person to another and so does not become a man. That spirit made Jesus the Christ and any of the Messengers, because they all have the same spirit.
If Jesus is the Spirit of God then what about His body?
It's a part of Baha'i theology that is a bit obscure to me, whether I am not smart enough to understand it or it is obscure to hide something is interesting.

 

[Brian2]

When I see how many writings have been lost, many 10's of thousands of verses, as mankind was not ready, then we know we are not guided to all truth, we are guided to the needs of this age. Which is all we can handle.

Regards Tony

That would mean that what Jesus said about the Spirit of Truth leading us into all truth is not true, and so Baha'u'llah is not the Spirit of Truth.
And of course he was not a spirit anyway.

 

[firedragon]

My reflections on what Baha'u'llah offered is that though some Titles are Specific to a Revelation, those Titles belong to all the Messengers.

Note what Baha'u'llah said prior to 'Spirit of God'

"..... When the light of Qur’ánic Revelation was kindled within the chamber of Muḥammad’s holy heart, He passed upon the people the verdict of the Last Day, the verdict of resurrection, of judgment, of life, and of death. Thereupon the standards of revolt were hoisted, and the doors of derision opened...."

So according to Baha'u'llah, Muhammad passed on the verdict of the 'Last Day'. Now if we look at prophecy, in the last day, the Spirit of Truth is also applicable.

I will look further tonight,but have a look how this verse ends from Baha'u'llah.

"..... Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood, and are honored with the mantle of glory. Thus hath Muḥammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed: “I am all the Prophets.” Likewise, He saith: “I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.” Similar statements have been made by Imám ‘Alí. Sayings such as these, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God’s immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of Divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the Scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the Day Springs of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: “Our Cause is but One.” Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same. Likewise, the Imáms of the Muḥammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said: “Muḥammad is our first, Muḥammad is our last, Muḥammad our all.”....... "

I see Baha'u'llah is lifting us above the veils of Names and Titles.

Regards Tony

You could take it for granted that I have read all the passages about "Spirit of God".

But it does not refer to Bahaullah who calls himself the spirit of truth exclusively. When Bahaullah says "God breathed the spirit of God into the prophet", do you mean that he collected all the prophets, or one single prophet and breathed that prophet into another prophet? Also the spirit of truth?

Sorry Tony, this is just false. You are not even speaking according to Bahaullah.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It is not the station pertaining to the world I talk about Susan.

Regards Tony

The closest analogy is the Sun and many Mirrors.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is not the station pertaining to the world I talk about Susan.

Regards Tony

I know, but that is the station I am talking about Tony.

 

[Trailblazer]

That would mean that what Jesus said about the Spirit of Truth leading us into all truth is not true, and so Baha'u'llah is not the Spirit of Truth.
And of course he was not a spirit anyway.

Don't get your hopes up. What Baha'u'llah said about being the Spirit of Truth leading us to all truth is true so Baha'u'llah is the Spirit of Truth.

The Spirit of Truth is a title that belongs exclusively to Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah refers to Jesus as the Spirit of God, whereas Baha'u'llah implies that He is the Spirit of Truth who will guide us into all truth.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, "I go away, and come again unto you"? (John 14:28). Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: "When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth." And yet behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies. (John 16:13).” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 191

Jesus did not guide us into all truth, because humanity was not ready to hear all truth 2000 years ago...... That is why Jesus said:

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[Trailblazer]

When I see how many writings have been lost, many 10's of thousands of verses, as mankind was not ready, then we know we are not guided to all truth, we are guided to the needs of this age. Which is all we can handle.

That is true, we are not literally guided into all truth, and that is not what Jesus meant. Jesus meant that figuratively, not literally. He meant we would have a lot more truth than we had before, not all truth. Only God has all truth and it is revealed incrementally, according to our ability to comprehend it, so even if many of Baha'ullah's Writings had not been lost, that does not mean He had revealed All Truth in them.

“Oh, would that the world could believe Me! Were all the things that lie enshrined within the heart of Bahá, and which the Lord, His God, the Lord of all names, hath taught Him, to be unveiled to mankind, every man on earth would be dumbfounded.

How great the multitude of truths which the garment of words can never contain! How vast the number of such verities as no expression can adequately describe, whose significance can never be unfolded, and to which not even the remotest allusions can be made! How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the appointed time is come! Even as it hath been said: “Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.

Of these truths some can be disclosed only to the extent of the capacity of the repositories of the light of Our knowledge, and the recipients of Our hidden grace.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 176

 

[Trailblazer]

I see in the Writings that the Messengers are One, the Same Holy Spirit, they are all that given Word of God.

But what they are given and what they reveal differs in every age and that is why the Writings are not the same.

“The Prophets of God should be regarded as physicians whose task is to foster the well-being of the world and its peoples, that, through the spirit of oneness, they may heal the sickness of a divided humanity. To none is given the right to question their words or disparage their conduct, for they are the only ones who can claim to have understood the patient and to have correctly diagnosed its ailments. No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If Jesus is the Spirit of God then what about His body?

Jesus tells us the flesh amounts to nothing and it is the Spirit that is life.

There are 5 levels of Spirit in this world, the Vegetable Spirit, the Animal Spirit and us born of the Human Spirit need to be born again in acceptance of the Holy Spirit through the Spirit of Faith.

There is a lot that Christ has now told us, we just have to widen our frames of feference Brian2.

All the best.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So I tested the spirit behind Baha'u'llah and found it is not God because it disagrees with the Bible and changes the whole story and rips bits out of it and does not take what belongs to Jesus and disclose it to us, he just takes what belongs to Jesus and says it actually belongs to him.

A point to consider Brian2 is that many see that the Spirit in the Message of Baha'u'llah fully supports what is disclosed in the Bible.

At the same time what you would be offering is akin to what the Jews still offer abiut Jesus. They still offer that Christ changed the story of the Old Testament and they tested the Spirit behind Jesus and it disagrees with the Old Testament.

So the proofs you offer to the Jew for Jesus, you will find will be proofs you can also offer for Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony