rocketman
Out there...
Dear Tiberius, as you may have read by now I'm not unhappy with Stemann's proposal that this whole debate may be a waste of time, but you have obviously put a lot of work into your post so I will do you the courtesy of answering your main points, leaving aside Stemann's wisdom for the moment. Please keep in mind that I only set out to show that there were possibilites as to why your alledged contradictions mightn't hold water, as for the theistic direction this thread is now headed in I say up front that my following answers may not be up to the standard of some of the resident theists hereabouts, who may be of more help to you on the finer points of scripture.
Totally agree, suffering is bad. Personally, I can see no justification whatsoever for the whole mindless, senseless nature of this tragic world's suffering. However [bear with me] if there really is a plan to show us humans the result of sin and/or rejecting God/being cut off from God etc, and there was something overwhemingly important at stake, such as eternity [one free of suffering at that], then, as much as it pains me to do so, I could accept that there needs to be a certain amount of history written to show beyond all doubt and in refutation of all argument that his way is better. This would be neccessary for we beings of free will to make a choice, because, as I understand the theistic position, once eternity is granted, it is not withdrawn [else it wouldn't be eternity]. I can't think of higher stakes, can you? This sort of thing is next to impossible for most people to accept, and I can understand that, but I still believe that this is a logical possibility that circumvents your first alledged contradiction.
to be continued...
Tiberius said:More the suffering that can go before the death.
Totally agree, suffering is bad. Personally, I can see no justification whatsoever for the whole mindless, senseless nature of this tragic world's suffering. However [bear with me] if there really is a plan to show us humans the result of sin and/or rejecting God/being cut off from God etc, and there was something overwhemingly important at stake, such as eternity [one free of suffering at that], then, as much as it pains me to do so, I could accept that there needs to be a certain amount of history written to show beyond all doubt and in refutation of all argument that his way is better. This would be neccessary for we beings of free will to make a choice, because, as I understand the theistic position, once eternity is granted, it is not withdrawn [else it wouldn't be eternity]. I can't think of higher stakes, can you? This sort of thing is next to impossible for most people to accept, and I can understand that, but I still believe that this is a logical possibility that circumvents your first alledged contradiction.
The kids have to get out into the real world sooner or later. If you had offspring and you knew they would make mistakes would you keep them inside forever? This event, poetically described in Genesis, is the first recorded example of us going our own way - naturally the parent has to allow this issue to unfold in order to deal with it. If we didn't have free will he could have just programmed us, and before we get into a debate over whether we have free will I simply say that the texts are written as if we do.Tiberius said:Puts that tree in the Garden of Eden when he didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from it, even though he knew for a fact that they would. Is that wise?
He takes us all eventually. It's bad for those who remain, but you and I can't speak with authority for those who do not. Many theists hold that death is not the end. So, can the deity who switched us on do it again if he wishes? Is he a murderer then? No. But the command "you shall not murder.." has always been contrasted with commands regarding, say, capital punishment. The distinction between lawful and unlawful killing is a fundamental part of every nations laws. Say, ever been to a chinese funeral?Tiberius said:So you say that even God doesn't like having to use death as a punishment. Why then does he do it so often for such trivial reasons? And why on earth did you yourself say, "And by the way, this death you speak of, you've experienced it?" like it wasn't really that bad after all?
Exactly, thank you, that's what I was saying. Now that you agree they are seperate, which came first, the logic or the physics? This is why the rock-argument is broken! I still believe this circumvents your second alledged contradiction.Tiberius said:What in the world are you talking about? Logic isn't explainable by physics.
You have crafted an interesting definition of omnipotent. My dictionary says: "Having greater unlimited power." Now why would it have to use the word 'greater' in there? Because the emphasis is as much on the word power as it is on the word unlimited. Some people think omnipotent means absolute unlimited power, but that kind of comic book notion does not belong in a debate like this. Taken another way, why would YHWH plead with pathetic little humans and even have to rock up as one of them if he has absolute power? Omnipotent literallly means 'all power'. You may use the term to mean 'unlimited power' but then you wouldn't be arguing against the God of the bible. So then, you are referencing some strange god who has absolute power, as opposed to the God of the Hebrews who is almighty. [can do anything that can be done/all power, not all powers].Tiberius said:If there are things that God can't do, then he is not omnipotent. And thus he is not God.
Does God decieve? Your simplistic interpretations of scripture have been refuted many times over. Off the top of my head I remember that the two quotes from Jeremiah are accepted by scholars as his outburst at God, consistent with all his other complaints. The wording there in the original Hebrew actually means to 'seduce' anyway. He was hoping for something to happen but God allowed him to be seduced by the idea. God makes animals that trick each other with camoflauge too, doesn't mean that kind of thing is evil. The bible is full of God allowing people to be decieved if that's what they want [sounds odd, but there you go]. Your quote from Ezekial is bogus. Please quote from a modern translation of the text. The quote from 1 Kings is out of context on it's lonesome, [shocking lack of scholarship here!], the rest of the passage is there for all to read, same goes for the quote from 2 Chronicles. Notice the verse from 2 Thess simply says that he allows them to believe a lie, not that he himself lied. I agree that he allows people to be decieved, it's one of the risks you take when you give someone free will and let them decide things for themselves.Tiberius said:Oh really?
to be continued...