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Featured Atheists: If God existed would God… (Continued)

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, Aug 3, 2022.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Are your doubts about God because of the suffering or because of the lack of evidence for God?
    Most atheists tell me they are atheists because they believe there is no evidence for God's existence, not because of the suffering.
     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Justification is the right word. It just does not apply since God requires no justification for anything he does. Iows, God does not have to justify what He does or does not do to humans since God is not accountable to humans.

    I started this thread to continue my discussion with @HonestJoe but apparently he does not want to continue that discussion so I will discuss whatever people want to discuss on this thread.
    I am not trying to justify suffering. Suffering simply exists, and I don't think that we can know why some people suffer so much more than others.

    I suppose if a study was done on people who suffer much vs. those who suffer little we could see which one leads to more character growth. Perhaps such studies have been done, I don't know.
    No, I don't think so, but why would God prevent suffering, given God created a world that has suffering in it, knowing that people would suffer?
     
  3. Altfish

    Altfish Veteran Member

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    No, no suffering, just lack of evidence
     
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  4. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    You did not qualify but contrary to your denial you did say...

    ...since suffering is advantageous for our spiritual growth.

    O am sure we are. But any human can change, habits can be broken and human nature comprises many habits.

    It is foreknowledge, knowing it will happen.

    It is said that god created... If he knew what his creation was to do (the good old omni again) then he created the future.

    Bull poop. Atheists simply point out the hypocrisy of a theist praising god for the good and denying gods responsibility for the bad. I am sure ive mentioned this before. An atheist blaming a god is like blaming harry potter
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    You are correct in saying that the joy is irrelevant to the atheist position and that the reason atheists seem to only focus on the bad part is because that is where the clearest conflict exists, between the claims being made about God and the actual actions taken by God according to scriptures.
    I certainly do recognize that there is a discrepancy between the claims being made about God in the scriptures and what we actually see in the world. One way that can be reconciled is by realizing that humans are responsible for much of the suffering in the world but that still does not explain the suffering that comes upon people through no fault of their own (e.g. accidents, injuries, diseases, natural disasters, etc.) It does not seem to me that a loving God would create a world that has the kinds of suffering that come upon people through no fault of their own, since it does not seem fair and just, and I am not going to offer any religious apologetics in an attempt to explain it away, as most theists do. ;) I will simply say I don't know why and leave it at that.
     
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  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I qualified that later.
    #14 Trailblazer
    God knows the future but God's knowledge does not create the future. All that God did was create the world.
    What creates the future are the actions of men.
    You are preaching to the choir.....I also pointed that hypocrisy in a thread i started a while ago:
    Questions that believers cannot answer
     
  7. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    I answered long before you changed tack

    I think she has it..?

    So why say atheists blame god for...?
     
  8. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    :cool:

    :cool:

    :cool:

    As simple as that
     
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  9. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Well-Known Member

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    Let's check the logical progression here:--
    1. God has the power to do anything.
    2. God can do anything,
    We know that there is nothing He cannot do.
     
  10. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Well-Known Member

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    Can you explain what you mean by "God is responsible for fate"?
     
  11. samtonga43

    samtonga43 Well-Known Member

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    Nobody said that foreknowledge is the cause of anything.
    ChristineM said, "The claim is god created all with foreknowledge". This does not mean that foreknowledge is the cause.
     
  12. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    Since there are so many contradictory concepts of the Gods or the God or whatever, this one about an all-knowing, all-loving God, has its problems. An evolving Godless natural world explains a lot of the things we see happening around us much better. Some things kill and eat other things. There are bacteria and viruses that cause disease in animals and humans. And we have an immune system and can eat better and do things to make our bodies more able to fight those things off. And then we develop things that can kill them before they kill us. Now add this loving creator God into it. It's kind of hard to make this God fit. Maybe a God that isn't all-knowing and isn't all-loving? A God that was just fumbling around creating things just to see what would happen. Or, like some religion, they have good Gods and some evil ones.
     
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  13. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    You know TB? Who says God is "all-loving"? Just out of curiosity.
     
  14. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    She said that "I would say". Not as if that's her main argument. She was comparing that arbitrary statement to an atheists arbitrary statement that "suffering is bad".
     
  15. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    If smart arsed healthy rich men and his cronies employ smart arsed human criminals......

    Anything you believe is always a lie. First position criminals.

    As God terms says one species exact each. Two of in every species. Seen observed to express the known reality as highest dominion consciousness. The human.

    Sexual procreation Inherits the sin in DNA.

    Meaning science knows origin DNA is already defective.

    Our life body biology feels pain suffering by its created being...not when our bodies are not changed.

    Is a Known medical observation.

    Therefore if you quibble about why a human was body owner who feels pain and suffers ..
    it's because you see it. Asides from feeling it.

    Spiritually youre meant to believe yourself same human that it's not righteous. So parents try to teach self safety. Human.

    As no one should be feeling pain.

    Yet I could bang my leg. Instant pain felt.

    So humans want to blame someone why their body was created to feel pain and suffering when it's natural bio inheritance. By terms how a body functions.

    You have to own the body exact to idealise conditions it expresses. Hence it hadn't existed before you. So it's not a law.

    What's not natural....greedy rich brothers. His choice by a human small community and any type of technology to be richer. Is not intelligent it's self destructive human behaviour.

    You own a criminal position. It's your position that claimed self idolisation and God typification as a human.

    So I ask you liar thinker why do you inflict pain and suffering yourself. Not just in society but by science changing biology by heavenly causes via machines? Knowing you caused it. Review it and want it caused.

    Claiming I then own sciences contacts. When human body biology always owned why pain is felt.

    Humans unnatural suffering.

    So if you are with God first and you can feel pain with God. Highest self terms. You say I don't feel pain with god unless I'm caused to.

    So it's not gods fault. It was your Satan science brothers fault said the testimony.

    Not gods fault says a human consciousness advised. So we were taught our brother the scientist of changing God caused us to suffer. As gods natural life terms stated no suffering yet can suffer.

    As you seem to forget living humans as humans being humans tell all the stories as a human.

    Was a teaching.

    As he cares less about mutual family rights and living conditions. Exactly advised.

    As he's already advised totally about it his own self. So why keep Interviewing your family? The answers of causes by human science practiced is with which you agree.

    What you won't agree with is that science of man never owned natural mass conditions in science.

    If a human says the whole heavens mass kept my life safe. Why is it that greedy men tried to impose that a one of string of anything in that mass was human owned?

    Truth says...as they want control in science of all the mass. To claim all contacts. Humans aren't nuclear we are stable in water mass and oxygenated mass.

    Stable means not changing. As if it did no biology would even exist.

    As all the mass isnt a human bio body they want it converted. The heavens mass intricate theory. To machine control it.

    Why burning cooling cloud mass produced evil imagery in a partial solid. As he's trying to change earths heavens mass into a huge human angel by science causes. Claiming humans owned every type.

    We only live in water oxygenated by natures body. Exact taught bio life ground position with life on gods earth the human review.

    Thesis thought by humans is exact human thought intent by invention of it. As science never owned creation of anything. They force unnatural changes only.

    If you ask why an entity you claim perfect in memory caused change to as a self spirit to inherit change.

    It's because they never understood extra change did cause another type of change. Until change was applied unnaturally then the realisation about change existed. Destruction.

    Hence to describe why it wasn't understood first ....destruction. It's because it hadn't existed first. It's not where we live exist now as everything constantly changes.

    In our life it's now only a memory.

    They had to have existed with change first to know change meaning three body types.

    Eternal background.
    The eternal being living existing.
    A language spirit moving in and out of the background.

    Three mutual presences changing.

    You cannot blame that being for what it hadn't realised...don't force change yourself.

    Inherited highest advised human life once an eternal being...never force change again as you only inherit a lower state of being. Our conscious intelligence.

    Is why we know consciousness existed first before change into loss...created creation. They hadn't owned pain.

    So our God is direct a humans god natural Idealised life support only. It doesn't own intention to harm. As change is what causes harm.

    Therefore we don't need to argue why the God support on earth gave us the highest life human. We know we are meant to be mutual loving kind caring.

    It's sciences own terms that don't produce those outcomes in science who argues with us .... so where is your God?

    Well smart arse brother you removed it's origin body mass and heavens mass. Is why. And then you became even nastier than scientific thought itself.
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    because they do.
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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  18. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Okay. So you are basically saying that Bahai theology is contradicting Islamic theology because Islamic theology does not say God is all-loving.

    By the way, I can tell you clearly that someone is lying to you saying the Bab said "all-loving". They probably made that because their audience is the western audience with a background in hearing christian words.

    It's made up.
     
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Interesting... Can you tell me what Islamic theology says about God?
    I have never been convinced that God is all-loving.
     
  20. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Not only Islamic theology, even the Bab, though your website claims otherwise, says "most merciful". Not all loving.

    In Islamic, God does not love the sinners unless they repent. It's the same in the Bible. Sinners like the Al Fasadhin Fil Ard who kill innocent people, pretend they are believers, claim this, that and the other etc, and they are not reforming.

    So it's false to say God is all-loving, all merciful. It's a strawman.
     
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