ecco
Veteran Member
Please show the comment made by an atheist asking you to prove your version of God. I will gladly put him in his place.
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Atheists have faith.
- Thread starter TransmutingSoul
- Start date
ecco
Veteran Member
See post #539. Paul and Colossians 2:9 differ with you interpretation.
Realistically, the Bible was written by many different people. Some asserted Jesus was 1/3 God in heaven and on earth. Some believed differently.
It's a reflection on Christianity that its holy scripture contradicts itself on one of the most basic and important aspects.
ecco
Veteran Member
Humans of the same tribe rarely kill one another.
Animals of the same species and the same tribe rarely kill one another.
You ascribe the former to "rational choices to moral and ethical virtue".
You ascribe the latter to survival of the fittest.
Yet you cannot state why you think they are different. Furthermore, I doubt you have the education and training to enable you to make an intelligent case.
Do you believe in evolution? If not, then I can understand why you came to your conclusion.
ecco
Veteran Member
It says if you believe you will see proofs and if you believe, you won't need proofs. DUH!
It is a "very reasonable and rational explanation" only to believers. To the rest, it's just nonsense.
ecco
Veteran Member
Yet you reject the actual comments from atheists.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Sure, one verse that was not even anything that Jesus said proves that Jesus is God.
That's called cherry-picking.
Cherry picking is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone focuses only on evidence that supports their stance, while ignoring evidence that contradicts it. For example, a person who engages in cherry picking might mention only a small number of studies out of all the studies which were published on a certain topic, in an attempt to make it look as if the scientific consensus matches their stance.
https://effectiviology.com/cherry-picking/
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The Tanakh states on three occasions that God is not a man. Obviously this MUST be a very very important point about the nature of God, in order to be stated three times.
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent
1 Samuel 15:29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.”
Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I might answer him, that we should come to trial together.
God did not suddenly change His mind and become a man when the New Testament was written.
This includes verses such as "I, the Lord, do not change." (Malachi 3:6, NIV) or the more limited "He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.” (1 Samuel 15:29, NIV), implying that God does not change his mind.
Immutability (theology) - Wikipedia
So you offer Nature and Nurture. I see science has shown that is a big factor.
So we can say that our personal tendencies and preferences are built upon the quality of the education we have received and in the environment we have received it, combined with our choices during that process?
Regards Tony
Sounds good to me.
That would be that your interpretation of that passage differs.
Colossians 2:9 says to me that we see in the body of the mirror naught but the reflection of God. Abdulbaha has explained this in detail.
Regards Tony
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
The fact that religious books can be interpreted in many different ways makes them useful to believers, but it is only more evidence against them if one can reason rationally.
It is very true and we take that for granted in this world every day.
Does a person need proof that the sun rises each day? Every aspect of our lives becomes habit, not in need of further proof.
Faith is also the same, once one has searched for the Spirit within and made a connection, no further proof is needed and that Spirit is manifested in all things.
Abdul'baha was the perfect example of the capacity of that Spirit in the human condition. There is no better person to turn to I'd one wants to learn of the Spirit that dwells within us all.
Regards Tony
I am asking them to look deeper at what has motivated them in their Nature and Nurture.
Many do not take that step. Life becomes habit and those habit were built from. Ones nature and nurture.
How many had a religious education as a child that gave and formed a basic moral outlook for instance?
All I ask for is honesty. I personally has a upbringing based in Christianity to the extent my parents put it into practice.
So my Nature and nurture were founded in some faith based principles, as were most likely many atheists.
It's all. To easy to say morals and ethics come from.our own selves, but that would totally ignore the entire process of nature and nurture.
It puts the cart before the horse.
Regards Tony
I would have hoped many of the atheists that replied to this OP would have stated what their childhood education was. I would expect many were brought up in a society that had at least some of the morals and virtues based in some religious traditions.
I also am a lot older then most and in my education is was a done deal, Christianity was taught in all schools. In this day that is mostly outlawed, so that is why the reactions to this post vary.
So how do you see the future unfolding with education?
From my perspective a Baha'i education has the foundation of morals, virtues and community based service activities. What is going to happen in the public system? I worry for this and future generations, as life will be very empty if morals, ethics and service to each other are neglected.
Regards Tony
I see that is the bounty of these books, they feed our own intent, what our heart is really saying.
This passage says it all to me.
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things".
When we read the holy books we see that reflected. We have the promise of Love if we embrace a given way of life and we have the warning of the consequences if we choose our way over what was offered.
That is how this world works, it is balance of the pillars of reward and punishment, Love and Hate, forgiveness and revenge, all the virtues and morals and all the opposites.
All of that is possible, the Holy books ask us to find our oneness, but also tells us it will be a long process before we do accept that ancient God given fact and that it is our own selves that prevent a unity of the Human race and hold back our evolutionary potential.
I see we are in the path of doing just that, we are finding out that only a united humanity can survive on this planet, without destroying it all. Then our next goal will to discover other life that we share this reality with, on a very grand scale across space and time.
Regards Tony
Outside of our household, my childhood was infused
with Christianity. Back in the day, we even had Bible
stories & prayer in public school. Never fooled me.
This OP is not about what has become doctrine, that is another minefield of discussion.
It was exploring our foundations in virtue, morals and how they are shown in deeds.
Are they more than us, how are they manifested?
Have we embraced that part of faith, that is the best part of all of us?
In the end it does not matter, what we need to do is encourage each other to be the best we can. If Faith can not achieve that, then we are best to be without faith.
Regards Tony
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No, it is a failure. That is all that it is. It tells us that they are written so poorly that people can abuse them to mean anything. A serious person would see this.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, not really, since it only causes arguments between believers over which interpretation is the correct one.
Moreover, the different interpretations of the Bible are why there are so many sects of Christianity.
That happens mostly with the Bible since many/most verses have more than one interpretation since Jesus spoke in proverbs. This does not happen with the Writings of Baha'u'llah since they are not ambiguous. In the following verse, Jesus was referring to when His Spirit would return in the Person of Baha'u'llah who spoke plainly of the Father.
John 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
It is evidence that the Bible having was written by many different men, and that they wrote different things that are contradictory. There is truth in the Bible but it is very difficult to wade through to find it if you ask me, like trying to navigate through an unmapped swamp.
ecco
Veteran Member
Oh, this is too funny. You accuse me of cherry-picking. You even go so far as to define it.
The author of the article you posted asserted: "Yet there is not a single verse in the Bible which states unequivocally, “Jesus is God,” or the like."
If you believe cherry-picking is a logical fallacy, why did you link to an article in which the author commits that very fallacy? One reason is that you probably didn't read the article.
However, I quoted from your article showing exactly what your author did.
So, @Trailblazer, please explain to me and the lurkers, why you linked to and posted from an article wherein the author is guilty of the horrendous "logical fallacy of cherry-picking".
In fairness, I posted several different verses. I also pointed out that your Bible is so full of contradictions as to be worthless.