Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Subduction Zone]

I'm not ducking anything. It's up to each person to judge something like this for themselves, it is inherently subjective. I'm not interested in winning an argument with you.

You are. You made a claim and now are trying to get others to confirm it. It does not work that way.

If I claimed "Bahai is false, check it out for yourself" would you give that any credence at all?

 

[Tiberius]

And yet there is not a single bit of evidence to show that any faith's prayers are not answered at a rate that is different to random chance.

Only if you ignore the studies that have been done on the efficacy of prayer. Which have been going on for about 170 years. Efficacy of prayer - Wikipedia

Once again you resort to cherry picking because you ignore the sources that don't suit your position.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why not? The ones where the strived to eliminate personal bias are the ones that tend to show no effect.

Just because one's own beliefs are shown to be wrong is never a valid reason to doubt a study.

Why not? Because when people pray for certain things they are not likely to get answers so that invalidates the study right there.

I would not make any assumptions about my beliefs. I do not believe prayers are answered very often.

 

[Trailblazer]

Only if you ignore the studies that have been done on the efficacy of prayer. Which have been going on for about 170 years. Efficacy of prayer - Wikipedia

Once again you resort to cherry picking because you ignore the sources that don't suit your position.

Nice try but I have no position.

 

[Tiberius]

There is evidence. Just because you want to say that it is not evidence, does not make it not evidence.

If you can't get other people to check it, there's no way to differentiate between knowledge and opinion. Opinion is not evidence. You have no way to show that what you call "evidence" isn't really just opinion, so as evidence it is worthless.

I never said that. All the evidence can be checked by anyone.

No it can't. You've said so yourself, many times.

"Spiritual reality is subjective and cannot be verified except by the person experiencing it." Post 1598. Also: "The evidence can be researched and studied and verified by you, but that is the only way it can ever be verified." Post 1787. So how do I check this "verified evidence" you've found if it can't be verified by anyone but you? And you've also specified that this imaginary verification is the only way beliefs can be verified: "I have verified that my religious beliefs are true, the only way they can be verified." Post 2318.

"Logic cannot be applied to religious beliefs because they can never be proven true or false." Post 1598. If it can't be proven true or false, how can you claim it is actually evidence?

"... there is no verifiable evidence the Baha'u'llah was actually speaking with God..." Post 1168. Also, "...I have made it clear that there is no verifiable evidence..." Post 1787. Don't expect me to believe you now when you say there is evidence that can be checked by anyone when you've already put yourself on record as saying there is no verifiable evidence.

"Religion is not science. It is not an objective fact that can be tested and verified by anyone." Post 2110. Again, your claim now that there is evidence that can be checked by anyone contradicts your established position.

No, I was not biased towards believing in Baha'u'llah because I had no desire to believe in God.

But you were biased towards believing the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, and believing in God is a natural consequence of that. Or were you under the impression that "bias towards" something means "a desire to believe something"?

There is a way to test it as I just posted to SZ.

#3111 Trailblazer, 18 minutes ago

Let's not get started on this prophecy malarkey again. We've already gone all around the world with our discussion about why I don't buy prophecy as valid evidence for any claim.

 

[Tiberius]

No, why would you think that? I just enjoy the company of atheists.

And why athetists, in particular?

I do not believe that is a reliable way to know, so I am done arguing about it. Believe what you want to.

Why is it unreliable?

I prayed that I would not be fired in October because of the vaccine mandate and God answered with an answer that was better than I had ever expected. I only expected to get a temporary reprieve but I got a medical accommodation that has no time limits so I can keep my job and not be vaccinated as long as I can continue to do my job at home as I have been doing.. Even my counselor said she was surprised because most people who applied did not get the accommodation. You might not believe that God had anything to with it but I do.

So you said you don't pray to "get something from God" like a "selfish sob", and then you give me an example of you getting something from God that you prayed for.

Do you see a slight issue there? Because I sure do.

 

[Tiberius]

I see nothing that I need to respond to here, so moving right along.....

Really? Well, you don't have to respond if you don't want to, but it looks to me (and most other people, I'm sure) that you can't reply to my claims without being shown to be wrong.

 

[Tiberius]

Because I am not trying to understand it.

Then what are you here for?

You've said several times that you aren't here to try to convert anyone, and now you say you aren't here to try to understand differing points of view. What in the world did you come here for?

 

[ratiocinator]

I already did, when I posted the evidence.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

Are you even being serious any more? You can't make something into evidence by assertion. This obviously isn't objective evidence of the truth of the religious claims.

So, he had "tender mercy unto men", that has nothing to do with the truth of his claims. The claim "He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God" is begging the question. It assumes that those people who believed him had the truth, which is what you're trying to give us evidence of.

 

[Tiberius]

I never said it was an objective fact that my beliefs are true. All I ever said is that there are objective facts that can be researched regarding the person and life of Baha'u'llah and the history of His mission on earth.

And I've never argued against those facts, have I?

I've only argued against the claim that he was speaking on behalf of God.

I do not agree and I don't want to go down that road again so I am moving on along the road.

Without a reason to back it up, your claim they are not contradictory falls flat.

I am not telling you what you have done, only you know that, but I doubt you really understand what the Baha'i Faith actually teaches, from what you have said.

You've done a poor job of showing it, since you've contradicted yourself and relied on logical fallacies many times.

Sure, you will find plenty of atheists who were formerly Christians but you will be hard pressed to find an atheist who was formerly a Baha'i. I (don't) wonder why.

Probably because it's such a small religion, there are very few people to pick from. And how many people are actually raised as Baha'i rather than coming to it later in life? Because anyone who goes from some faith to atheism is not very likely to start out in Baha'i, and if they are going to go from a non-Baha'i faith to atheism, it's not very likely they will pass through Baha'i on the way.

So your claim comes down to statistics, and the validity of the faith has nothing to do with it.

 

[Tiberius]

I am not overly optimistic about those kinds of studies.

So what? There have been 170 years worth of studies, and the results indicate that prayer has no effect. Your optimism doesn't change that fact, and you can't discount those results just because you don't like them. You just gotta live with the fact that the real world evidence shows prayer is worthless.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you can't get other people to check it, there's no way to differentiate between knowledge and opinion. Opinion is not evidence. You have no way to show that what you call "evidence" isn't really just opinion, so as evidence it is worthless.

If other people checked the evidence how would that help to differentiate between knowledge and opinion?
How would the other people's opinions of the evidence be any more valid than my opinion of the evidence?
I want to have an opinion about the evidence, MY opinion, because that makes it MY belief.
I do not care what other people think about my beliefs because I am responsible to God for myself and my own beliefs
I am sorry you cannot understand this. I cannot make you understand it.

So how do I check this "verified evidence" you've found if it can't be verified by anyone but you?

The evidence can be verified by anyone who CHOOSES to verify it for themselves. Independent investigation of truth is a process that a person does by themself, they do not rely upon what others think about the evidence. We are all responsible to God for our own beliefs so they have to be our own beliefs that we came to believe by ourselves.

But you were biased towards believing the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, and believing in God is a natural consequence of that. Or were you under the impression that "bias towards" something means "a desire to believe something"?

NO. I was not biased towards believing in the Revelation of Baha'u'llah! I never even heard of it before I discovered it so how could I have had a bias?

 

[Trailblazer]

So what? There have been 170 years worth of studies, and the results indicate that prayer has no effect. Your optimism doesn't change that fact, and you can't discount those results just because you don't like them. You just gotta live with the fact that the real world evidence shows prayer is worthless.

Keep talking, but you are not going to convince me. Why is it so important to convince me? I don't care about convincing you.

 

[Spirit of Light]

If other people checked the evidence how would that help to differentiate between knowledge and opinion?
How would the other people's opinions of the evidence be any more valid than my opinion of the evidence?
I want to have an opinion about the evidence, MY opinion, because that makes it MY belief.
I do not care what other people think about my beliefs because I am responsible to God for myself and my own beliefs
I am sorry you cannot understand this. I cannot make you understand it.

The evidence can be verified by anyone who CHOOSES to verify it for themselves. Independent investigation of truth is a process that a person does by themself, they do not rely upon what others think about the evidence. We are all responsible to God for our own beliefs so they have to be our own beliefs that we came to believe by ourselves.

NO. I was not biased towards believing in the Revelation of Baha'u'llah! I never even heard of it before I discovered it so how could I have had a bias?

When I read this @Trailblazer, there is one question arising in my mind, and no it is not a critique of you belief. But if you claim you choose to have your own belief, and nobody else can question it. Is that within the Baha`i faith? or are you no longer a baha`i?

Maybe I misunderstand you?

 

[Trailblazer]

And I've never argued against those facts, have I?

I've only argued against the claim that he was speaking on behalf of God.

I have no problem with that as you are not obligated to believe that just because I believe it.

You've done a poor job of showing it, since you've contradicted yourself and relied on logical fallacies many times.

It is only your opinion that I have committed logical fallacies. I disagree with your opinion.
Showing what? How is that related to what I said?

"I am not telling you what you have done, only you know that, but I doubt you really understand what the Baha'i Faith actually teaches, from what you have said."

Probably because it's such a small religion, there are very few people to pick from. And how many people are actually raised as Baha'i rather than coming to it later in life? Because anyone who goes from some faith to atheism is not very likely to start out in Baha'i, and if they are going to go from a non-Baha'i faith to atheism, it's not very likely they will pass through Baha'i on the way.

So your claim comes down to statistics, and the validity of the faith has nothing to do with it.

What it has to do with is that Baha'is do not drop out of the Bahai Faith at the same rate that Christians drop out of Christianity and there is a good reason for that. Christianity is also growing at a much slower rate than the Baha'i Faith, statistics show that.

Statistics show that from 1910-2010, the Baha’i Faith grew at a rate of 3.54%, whereas during that time Islam grew at a rate of 1.97% and Christianity grew at a rate of 1.32%.

From 2000-2010 Islam became the fastest growing religion (1.86 %) and the Baha’i Faith was the second fastest growing religion (1.72%).

Statistics from: Growth of religion

Growth of the Baha’i Faith has slowed down since 2000 because the new goal is consolidation and community building, so the emphasis is not spreading the Faith all over the world as it was before in the 20th century. I think it is really sad that teaching the Faith is no longer the primary goal, but I have nothing to say about how the Baha’i Administration functions.

 

[Trailblazer]

When I read this @Trailblazer, there is one question arising in my mind, and no it is not a critique of you belief. But if you claim you choose to have your own belief, and nobody else can question it. Is that within the Baha`i faith? or are you no longer a baha`i?

Maybe I misunderstand you?

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. People can question my belief all they want to. What I was saying is that we are all responsible to God for our own beliefs so we should not allow other people to influence our choice of what to believe. Rather, we should do an independent investigation and make our own determination of what is true.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. People can question my belief all they want to. What I was saying is that we are all responsible to God for our own beliefs so we should not allow other people to influence our choice of what to believe. Rather, we should do an independent investigation and make our own determination of what is true.

Thank you for clerifying that

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So what? There have been 170 years worth of studies, and the results indicate that prayer has no effect. Your optimism doesn't change that fact, and you can't discount those results just because you don't like them. You just gotta live with the fact that the real world evidence shows prayer is worthless.

That is a one sided view.

Here is one report with more open findings;

Prayer and healing: A medical and scientific perspective on randomized controlled trials

One also has to know the purpose of prayer, and until science comes to that understanding, there will be little progress.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you even being serious any more? You can't make something into evidence by assertion. This obviously isn't objective evidence of the truth of the religious claims.

The evidence which was referenced in that passage is the following:

The character of Baha'u'llah:
His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

The history of the Baha'i Faith:
His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:

God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The Writings of Baha'u'llah:
The words He hath revealed is what He wrote can be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

So, he had "tender mercy unto men", that has nothing to do with the truth of his claims. The claim "He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God" is begging the question. It assumes that those people who believed him had the truth, which is what you're trying to give us evidence of.

That is just part of the passage, that is not the evidence!

"He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God" is not begging the question because it does not assume that those people who believed in Baha'u'llah had the truth. It is just a statement -- we all have the capacity to believe in God. It has nothing to do with whether the people believed in Baha'u'llah or not although it means we have the capacity to believe in Baha'u'llah.

 

[ratiocinator]

The evidence which was referenced in that passage is the following:

The character of Baha'u'llah:
His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

The history of the Baha'i Faith:
His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:

God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The Writings of Baha'u'llah:
The words He hath revealed is what He wrote can be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

None of which is evidence that the god he believed in is real. This is blindingly obvious. He could have done all that and written all that while being completely mistaken or deluded about his version of god.