Atheism vs religion which bird is a better bird?

[Dawnofhope]

You have been very busy today with your multiple responses on this thread. Back to original question. Which bird is better - atheism or religion? The religion bird is of course as it has given birth to numerous baby birds called Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam of the Baha'i Faith. With the exception of the Baha'i Faith all the other birds have endured centuries and provided a mostly positive and profound influence upon the human enterprise we call civilisation. I would argue that we have now moved into an age where the same unknowable and transcendent essence called God that inspired the previous Faiths has brought forward principles for this new age through the Baha'i Faith. That's another story.

The Atheism bird is entirely different. We don't have civilisations in history that are based on atheism. One form of atheism is humanism but this seems to want to take credit for all the learnings that have resulted from the religious birds influence on civilisation remove the aspects its uncomfortable with.

Communism is a movement that has taken root in many countries over the last 100 years. Atheism is central to its ideology and like you holds a very negative view of religion. However communism as a movement is not content with just making arguments against religion as you do, but has vigorously worked to supress and in some cases to completely eradicate religion.

That's not say that atheism leads to communism or all atheists are communist. That's does not mean atheists can be great people. However atheism is clearly enshrined as part of the communist movement.

But of more import...can provide any evidence of the spread of xtianity "Far and Wide" prior Constantine? Or define what you mean by this? Numbers of adherents? Locals? Etc?

Early centers of Christianity - Wikipedia

History of early Christianity - Wikipedia

List of religious populations - Wikipedia

The idea that Christianity was spread largely through violence has little evidence to support it. There are obvious periods in history where this has been so, but on the whole people have chosen to become Christians or been born Christians. I don't know what country you reside but all the Christians I know have chosen to become Christians and have found it a positive influence on their lives.

I do realize that xtianity spread by bits and pieces, and like a 1000s of others beliefs in the time moved around.. But far and wide seem to require a breath of foundation.

You can talk about these 1000s of other beliefs but most do not come remotely close to any of the relatively small number of Faiths I have already mentioned.

But really...doesn't' peace mean no one is left but me and those that listen to me?

No

You are saying that Lenin committed atrocities that make Hitler's seem pale in comparison?

That is not what was said. The 'Soviet System' created by Lenin...not Lenin himself. Go back and read what was written.

Any in history have no parallel? This should be more widely published!

Here's a site that tries to refute (poorly in my opinion) the connection between atheism and communism and even this site acknowledges the staggering loss of life due to communist regimes ie 85 -100 million people.

Atheism and Communism

Now when you speak of extinguishing faith in God, this is difficult...I am 100% behind extinguishing belief in divine. But I do not for a minute belive it requires anything more than rational discourse! Of course, I do believe we are 1000 years from it.

The problem is that some people who feel as you do wanted to take it to the next level. Ever heard the phrase "The ends justifies the means"? Leon Trotsky used this.

NIce read. Is it possible to provide documentation as opposed to this very brief and equivocal web page? For all I know, you wrote this!!!! Not saying you did, but you might as well have for all it documents!

Its well referenced. There may be a few deniers as there are for the holocaust, but the reality is communism killed much more people than fascism ever did.

The Black Book of Communism - Wikipedia

OK! First, I, as an atheist, and most atheists I know (many) are not accepting of the diversity of (can't say other) any religious beliefs. We are just tolerant of ignorance so long as it does little proximal harm.

Its not hard to go from intolerance to bigotry and hatred.

Now, to the more important point...If atrocities are attributed to atheism, bring them forward...If atrocities attributed to politcal ideology disguised as atheism, bring them forward. I suppose there are 100 ways this could be played out.....Bottom line if there are atrocities bring them forward...then let's talk about stopping them, what causes them, etc...

Communism as rooted in Marxist ideology has a clear atheistic philosophy with an agenda to eradicate religion.

Marxist–Leninist atheism - Wikipedia

The problem isn't religion or atheism. It is intolerance, bigotry and hatred.

Another problem is defending the indefensible. Communism has been an unmitigated disaster wherever it has taken root. Like fascism and racism it is worthy of contempt.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There was no doubt in the groups eye...the 12 steps had, have, and never will fail.

How they sometimes promote the 12 steps as dogmatic is another objection of mine against them. You are attempting to do what you must, heal yourself, address your problems, and overcome addiction, you have taken the first steps already, so obviously you are not powerless (and plenty of social psych research does show us that results (in general not specifically AA) are better when people are made to feel empowered rather than hopeless); there is likely nothing scientific to back up the idea of a mandatory accepting of a "higher power;" even the idea of mandatory abstinence from alcohol does not have any scientific evidence to support it is a must (rather, science suggests that it's unnecessary and that very most likely your friend will be just fine). And I'm not too fond of insisting they are always and forever alcoholics or calling a chemical dependency brought about by a disruption in neurochemistry a disease.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

all the other birds have endured centuries and provided a mostly positive and profound influence upon the human enterprise we call civilisation.

Native Americans, Jews, Muslims, other Christians, and many, many more would not agree with this. The Aztecs butchered thousands and thousands for religious sacrifices. Christians and Muslims butchered themselves and each other almost nearly since their foundings. Hindu has caused and is causing major social issues in India. And that's not counting the "witches" and "blasphemers" who were brutalized and killed. It's not counting people displaced, marginalized, or repressed. I would call the effect profound, but it's far from being mostly positive.

 

[McBell]

I see 10 -20 patients per day. I'm unable to distinguish the atheists from the Christians. Most seem like decent and reasonable people....

This is an interesting point.

I lost count of the number of times I suspected a member is not actually a follower of the religion they claim and are actually claiming said religion so as to turn others off from said religion.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Faith is omnipotent, dis-belief lacks power.

 

[Cephus]

Only in a legal sense, in the context of a protected group.

Only because they were being abused by the religious and wanted equal representation.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Faith is omnipotent, dis-belief lacks power.

Faith was unable to heal my sorrows and dry my tears (it actually made them much worse). Disbelief has made me a better person, emotionally, psychologically, ethically, and socially.

 

[Revoltingest]

Only because they were being abused by the religious and wanted equal representation.

Aye dat.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Faith was unable to heal my sorrows and dry my tears (it actually made them much worse). Disbelief has made me a better person, emotionally, psychologically, ethically, and socially.

Imperfection is a wound to the heal of Time, and that's what Faith believes, he is not the wound he is the healing.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Imperfection is a wound to the heal of Time, and that's what Faith believes, he is not the wound he is the healing.

I didn't say it was the wound, I said it was unable to heal mine. But not only did it not heal me, it made me worse off.

 

[MonkeyFire]

I didn't say it was the wound, I said it was unable to heal mine. But not only did it not heal me, it made me worse off.

Define faith. Do you believe to tell the truth, or to have hope.

 

[McBell]

Faith is omnipotent, dis-belief lacks power.

Then why are so many theists afraid of dis-belief?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

One form of atheism is humanism but this seems to want to take credit for all the learnings that have resulted from the religious birds influence on civilisation remove the aspects its uncomfortable with.

Yes, because it was Enlightenment-era thinkers who broke from the traditions of religion and instead evaluated ethics and morality independent of what god and religion want. Why would I not claim that? Especially when the "religious influence" includes books that instruct parents to kill rebellious children?

We don't have civilisations in history that are based on atheism.

We'll, we can look at the Nordic countries, who are pretty much the most atheist, and also have the lowest crime rates, high literacy rates, low poverty rates, higher rates of upward mobility, and even lower prison recidivism rates. Compare this to America, which is pretty much the most Christian on the face of the Earth.

Communism is a movement that has taken root in many countries over the last 100 years. Atheism is central to its ideology and like you holds a very negative view of religion.

Actually, under Marxist-Stalinist Communism religion was assaulted, yet the earliest Christians themselves lived in Communist communes.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Define faith. Do you believe to tell the truth, or to have hope.

I believed I had the truth.

 

[McBell]

Define faith. Do you believe to tell the truth, or to have hope.

Seems to me that many people demonstrate that faith is hoping they have the truth

 

[MonkeyFire]

Then why are so many theists afraid of dis-belief?

They are the false ones generally.

I believed I had the truth.

I believe in life. It creates hope. If you suffer a lot know that Hope, and Faith suffer for a short time then go on to ever after always before in nirvana

 

[McBell]

They are the false ones generally.

Who are you claiming the No True Scotsman for?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I believe in life.

I don't believe in life, I embrace it. That became much easier to do without having faith.

If you suffer a lot know that Hope, and Faith suffer for a short time

If I still had this faith and hope you speak of, I'd still be very miserable, very depressed, and considering I tried to kill myself once before I did get better, it is difficult to say I'd even still be alive.

 

[Cephus]

Seems to me that many people demonstrate that faith is hoping they have the truth

But generally not caring. That's why so many people, when faced with evidence that their faith is wrong, simply ignore it and just keep repeating their religious mantra.

 

[Cephus]

I believe in life. It creates hope. If you suffer a lot know that Hope, and Faith suffer for a short time then go on to ever after always before in nirvana

Hope is meaningless. Believe in facts. Facts are all that matters. How you feel about the facts is irrelevant. You're just having an emotional reaction.