Atheism vs religion which bird is a better bird?

[MonkeyFire]

I don't believe in life, I embrace it. That became much easier to do without having faith.

If I still had this faith and hope you speak of, I'd still be very miserable, very depressed, and considering I tried to kill myself once before I did get better, it is difficult to say I'd even still be alive.

Dis-belief is all suffering.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Dis-belief is all suffering.

But my suffering has been greatly ameliorated ever since I renounced Christ, evicted the Holy Ghost, and cursed the name of Elohim, and my suffering lessened even more after I just kind of "outgrew" faith and religion.
When I had faith, I was trapped in a very dark pit. Without faith, I don't remember my suffering except that it happened, and I am objectively far much better off and have improved in strides in so many areas when I decided to quit letting god make my decisions for me.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This is an interesting point.

I lost count of the number of times I suspected a member is not actually a follower of the religion they claim and are actually claiming said religion so as to turn others off from said religion.

That sums it up. Often those who claim adherence to a particular religion either misunderstand what their religion really teaches and/or fail to live the life.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, because it was Enlightenment-era thinkers who broke from the traditions of religion and instead evaluated ethics and morality independent of what god and religion want. Why would I not claim that?

As God would have wanted them to...

"For God has given humans reason to investigate about the truth of things. If religious matters are against science and reason, they are illusions. For that which is against science is ignorance. And if we say religion is against reason, then the meaning is that religion is ignorance. Presumably religion must be in conformation to reason in order to bring assurance to a person. If something is against reason, it is not possible for it to bring about assurance in a person." Abdu'l-Baha

Especially when the "religious influence" includes books that instruct parents to kill rebellious children?

I never learnt that when I was a Christian. No wonder you left.

We'll, we can look at the Nordic countries, who are pretty much the most atheist, and also have the lowest crime rates, high literacy rates, low poverty rates, higher rates of upward mobility, and even lower prison recidivism rates. Compare this to America, which is pretty much the most Christian on the face of the Earth.

American's may believe that America is great, but Non-Americans have a different perspective.

The Nordic countries do high numbers of Christians though. Besides are not justice, love, generosity, sharing, and helping those in need principles that we could find in all the Major world religions?

Actually, under Marxist-Stalinist Communism religion was assaulted, yet the earliest Christians themselves lived in Communist communes.

The early Christians did not live in accordance with Marxist - Stalinist values. Living in a commune and living under a Soviet style communist regimes are worlds apart.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As God would have wanted them to...

The achievement is we did it without god. We didn't turn to a religious text, we turned to reason.

I never learnt that when I was a Christian. No wonder you left.

It took me awhile to learn it as well. But once I did actually fully read the Bible, I learned much that I didn't know prior.

The Nordic countries do high numbers of Christians though.

America has a very high rate of Christians, the Nordic countries sometimes have over half of the population who is Atheist or Agnostic. But yet socially they are fairing much better than America.

The early Christians did not live in accordance with Marxist - Stalinist values.

Marxism does not hold a monopoly over Communism, nor are Marxist Communism and Marxist-Stalinist Communism the only approaches for Communism.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The achievement is we did it without god. We didn't turn to a religious text, we turned to reason.

The human mind with its capacity for reason, invention, and creativity is what distinguishes us from the animal kingdom. Some of the enlightenment philosophers may have been inspired by God. You may be too and you don't know it!

It took me awhile to learn it as well. But once I did actually fully read the Bible, I learned much that I didn't know prior.

"Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth, give birth to spirituality, and bring life and light to each heart. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division, it were better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure; but if the remedy should only aggravate the complaint it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion. All the holy prophets were as doctors to the soul; they gave prescriptions for the healing of mankind; thus any remedy that causes disease does not come from the great and supreme Physician."

America has a very high rate of Christians, the Nordic countries sometimes have over half of the population who is Atheist or Agnostic. But yet socially they are fairing much better than America.

It is because sometimes the atheists and agnostics are better Christians than the Christians.

Marxism does not hold a monopoly over Communism, nor are Marxist Communism and Marxist-Stalinist Communism the only approaches for Communism.

Perhaps not, but Marxist communism has been such a blight on the face of humanity in the last 100 years (since 1917) that we probably need to call it something else.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You may be too and you don't know it!

I know I am not.

The human mind with its capacity for reason, invention, and creativity is what distinguishes us from the animal kingdom.

We are one with the animal kingdom, not different from.

"Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth, give birth to spirituality, and bring life and light to each heart. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division, it were better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure; but if the remedy should only aggravate the complaint it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion. All the holy prophets were as doctors to the soul; they gave prescriptions for the healing of mankind; thus any remedy that causes disease does not come from the great and supreme Physician."

And yet religion has caused more division and war than it has unity and peace.

It is because sometimes the atheists and agnostics are better Christians than the Christians.

Which is a powerful notion for how unnecessary religion is.

Perhaps not, but Marxist communism has been such a blight on the face of humanity in the last 100 years (since 1917) that we probably need to call it something else.

Actually, Marxism has never been practiced. Not even Soviet Russia was without class, money, or state; three features of a Marxist Communist society according to Marx.

 

[corynski]

Humans create gods and goddesses, and unicorns and trolls, one has only to read history and mythology to know that. And if, god forbid, so to speak, you were to study anthropology you would understand why beliefs and religions evolved as part of each human group's culture. Belief is a social glue, and it identifies members absolutely as one of a specific culture. To be ostracized from a culture means you lose that unity with those people and you then must associate with others with other beliefs, and they immediately know you are an outsider. But back in 'those times', long before science and books, and we're talking thousands of years before the christian 'god' would appear, no one knew anything beyond the simplest, rudimentary things. Rather it seems it was a logical progression from the water and tree spirits of an even more primitive time, millennia before the christian or indian or whatever gods existed. Julian Jaynes makes an excellent case for 'gods' that have arisen from a leader's dreams or hallucinations.
Face it, we've been completely brainwashed since birth, to be honest about it. We've all been lied to and force-fed with beliefs by others who stand to gain from our belief, from parents to preachers to government officials. Yet look around today, we've supposedly evolved into 'thinking', 'aware' human beings, who can appreciate the beauty of the scientific method to provide a point of reference regarding 'reality', yet we still don't see any agreement upon anything, in fact it seems the opposite, that we exercise our creativity to create new beliefs and new gods.

Allow me to add this reference to Julian Jaynes, a very original thinker for sure, a pleasure to read: Julian Jaynes - Wikipedia