Are you a true Theist?

[Guy Threepwood]

If such a deity knows everything about me, and my life, and everything else in the universe, it knows that I cannot actually choose to be anything other than what/who I am. And if in fact said deity knows all, HeSheItThem knows why I am the way I am, and what it would take to make me be the kind of person HSIT wants me to be...but HSIT will not make it so that I will be that person, and will therefore condemn me to Hell because I won't be what it wants...

That's incomprehensible to me...And if it bothers to watch things play out as it determined long, long ago, then it's even less comprehensible...

OTOH, if I really do have free will, then I don't see such a deity as really being omnimax...I don't really have a problem with that, but I'm not the one claiming that the creator deity watches over our every action...but even if it's not omnimax, even if it's only a few orders of magnitude larger/wiser/whatever, HSIT would still be incomprehensible...

Think about watching a rerun of your favorite football game, you know every play, does this mean the players had no free will? were fated to every move? yes and no

i.e. fate and free will can coexist, from different perspectives

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Think about watching a rerun of your favorite football game, you know every play, does this mean the players had no free will? were fated to every move? yes and no

i.e. fate and free will can coexist, from different perspectives

If I as a deity knew the positions and fate of every particle and wave of energy and spirit, etc., prior to the beginning of the game, then I would know EXACTLY how each would behave, EXACTLY what would happen. There is no question of free will at that scale: the die is cast and it will happen in a totally deterministic manner. At our scale, there would only uncertainty and the appearance of free will, of chance, of choice. That is not the same thing as actually having free will.

 

[David T]

In my experience many theists (particularly Christians and Muslims) like to tell atheists and agnostics that they know "in their heart" that God exists

Hubert, you wrote the answer, and then go about being religious in your own understanding very normal.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Hubert, you wrote the answer, and then go about being religious in your own understanding very normal.

No, I am non-religious. However if I were convinced that every move I made was being tracked by an all-powerful anthropomorphic immortal, I would conduct my life differently. In any case, still awaiting on responses from those of Abrahamic faiths who actually do believe in said entity.

 

[savagewind]

No, I am non-religious. However if I were convinced that every move I made was being tracked by an all-powerful anthropomorphic immortal, I would conduct my life differently. In any case, still awaiting on responses from those of Abrahamic faiths who actually do believe in said entity.

God is love
Love does not keep account of the injury
So God does not watch us for wrongdoing, but I think God is interested in a person's spiritual progress.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

God is love
Love does not keep account of the injury
So God does not watch us for wrongdoing, but I think God is interested in a person's spiritual progress.

I am not just referring to God watching for wrongdoing. If one were absolutely convinced that your every move was being tracked by a perfect cosmic overlord, one would undoubtedly be more self-conscious about every action he/she makes. The fact that every move you make (wrong and right aside) is being tracked would be enough to cause noticeable behavior alterations that are not apparent in professing theists.

 

[savagewind]

I am not just referring to God watching for wrongdoing. If one were absolutely convinced that your every move was being tracked by a perfect cosmic overlord, one would undoubtedly be more self-conscious about every action he/she makes. The fact that every move you make (wrong and right aside) is being tracked would be enough to cause noticeable behavior alterations that are not apparent in professing theists.

True, but who is aware of God tracking them? Are there people like that? Oh ya, Jehovah's Witnesses. Never mind

 

[Rational Agnostic]

True, but who is aware of God tracking them? Are there people like that? Oh ya, Jehovah's Witnesses. Never mind

I would think that all monotheistic believers are convinced that God is observing them at all times. Isn't that a core belief of all monotheistic religions?

 

[savagewind]

I would think that all monotheistic believers are convinced that God is observing them at all times. Isn't that a core belief of all monotheistic religions?

I do not think so. It would be as though God was a passive bystander. I think most God believers believe God is a mighty force for good.

 

[Esaurus]

I am still awaiting responses from Christians/Muslims or others who profess that they believe they are under the constant, close observation of an invisible superman.

Hello Hubert,

As a believer in God of the Bible, I see God as the top of the chain of command. As children we were under our all-seeing parents and we had better not touch that hot stove or cross the street without looking!

Daddy is under his boss. Mama and Daddy are under government. We are under the police on the highway and better not be caught speeding or not stopping at a stop sign! The president is the ultimate head of the government.

But government is run by people that are influenced by the same human nature as the child that steals his brother's rattle and like a child, sometimes need a spanking. Just because we have a Constitution here in America does not necessarily mean that it can't be breached. Who is there to watch over government officials? Although we the people, we are still subject to mean-ole human nature.

Even though our nation is a republic ruled by law (instead of the whims of a dictator), from whom or where did the laws originate? To whom are we responsible not to forfeit unalienable rights?

Even if you say that your parents are responsible for bringing you here, is there anyone to whom your parents gave thanks for blessing them with you? Aren't we all sure that we didn't arrive here by our own power? Why did you receive the priceless blessing of life?

Is there anyone to give thanks for a good harvest?

Think of a person well experienced on top in a high position that's suddenly faced with a crisis situation where he and his helpers are totally unprepared for by the totality of knowledge to that point. This is where subtle temptations to compromise are at their highest. Is there anyone for him to depend on for guidance?

Here's an example of one in a similar situation. It is that of a Russian general that was a devout communist over 100,000 men during Russia's war with Afghanistan. He learned who is at the very top of the chain of command the hard way. When his helicopter began to plunge because it was shot down, he called on God to save him just in case if God happened to be real. He was the only survivor of the crash that miraculously recovered and regained full use of his body even though warned otherwise. He immediately became a believer when he regained conscience. I listened to him speak in person through a translator.

To savagewind:

I think that if God watches me God should have made me beautiful.

There seems to be a word missing from the English language. The word would describe someone who watches another for the good of that person.

Who said that you are not beautiful? I only know that all women are beautiful!

The closest description to the word that you wish is "grateful" that describes the person that's thankful for good that's done. King David often gave thanks to God.

ELD

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Hello Hubert,

As a believer in God of the Bible, I see God as the top of the chain of command. As children we were under our all-seeing parents and we had better not touch that hot stove or cross the street without looking!

Daddy is under his boss. Mama and Daddy are under government. We are under the police on the highway and better not be caught speeding or not stopping at a stop sign! The president is the ultimate head of the government.

But government is run by people that are influenced by the same human nature as the child that steals his brother's rattle and like a child, sometimes need a spanking. Just because we have a Constitution here in America does not necessarily mean that it can't be breached. Who is there to watch over government officials? Although we the people, we are still subject to mean-ole human nature.

Even though our nation is a republic ruled by law (instead of the whims of a dictator), from whom or where did the laws originate? To whom are we responsible not to forfeit unalienable rights?

Even if you say that your parents are responsible for bringing you here, is there anyone to whom your parents gave thanks for blessing them with you? Aren't we all sure that we didn't arrive here by our own power? Why did you receive the priceless blessing of life?

Is there anyone to give thanks for a good harvest?

Think of a person well experienced on top in a high position that's suddenly faced with a crisis situation where he and his helpers are totally unprepared for by the totality of knowledge to that point. This is where subtle temptations to compromise are at their highest. Is there anyone for him to depend on for guidance?

Here's an example of one in a similar situation. It is that of a Russian general that was a devout communist over 100,000 men during Russia's war with Afghanistan. He learned who is at the very top of the chain of command the hard way. When his helicopter began to plunge because it was shot down, he called on God to save him just in case if God happened to be real. He was the only survivor of the crash that miraculously recovered and regained full use of his body even though warned otherwise. He immediately became a believer when he regained conscience. I listened to him speak in person through a translator.

To savagewind:


Who said that you are not beautiful? I only know that all women are beautiful!

The closest description to the word that you wish is "grateful" that describes the person that's thankful for good that's done. King David often gave thanks to God.

ELD

I appreciate the friendly reply, although you still have not been able to refute my hypothesis that professing theists are not nearly as convinced of the existence of a supreme invisible deity as they claim to be. Since you replied I will ask you: Are you more self-conscious while using the toilet, showering, or engaging in other activities generally considered "private?" After all, if one would be embarrassed performing these tasks under the observation of another human, how much more embarrassing would it be to be watched by an all-powerful superman 24/7?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

If I as a deity knew the positions and fate of every particle and wave of energy and spirit, etc., prior to the beginning of the game, then I would know EXACTLY how each would behave, EXACTLY what would happen. There is no question of free will at that scale: the die is cast and it will happen in a totally deterministic manner.

agreed; this game, the rules, the field, was created by God , he knows how it ends, he's already seen that, because time as we know it is merely one of his creations, he is not bound by the rules of his own creation is he?

At our scale, there would only uncertainty and the appearance of free will, of chance, of choice. That is not the same thing as actually having free will.

disagree, again, if we know now that the Cubs won their 1st world series since 1908 this year, does that remove all free will from the players at the time? Or do you think they never had any?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

agreed; this game, the rules, the field, was created by God , he knows how it ends, he's already seen that, because time as we know it is merely one of his creations, he is not bound by the rules of his own creation is he?

disagree, again, if we know now that the Cubs won their 1st world series since 1908 this year, does that remove all free will from the players at the time? Or do you think they never had any?

What evidence is there that humans have free will? Certainly, I can make the argument that the players did not have any free will in the course of the season or the games of the series...

Please understand that I am advancing a position which is not necessarily that which I hold; the extreme position is that the universe IS fully deterministic, which means that individuals cannot act in any way except that which has been determined by everything that has gone before to create the them of now. What evidence should be convincing to someone who does not believe that humans have free will, that humans do indeed have free will?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

What evidence is there that humans have free will? Certainly, I can make the argument that the players did not have any free will in the course of the season or the games of the series...

Please understand that I am advancing a position which is not necessarily that which I hold; the extreme position is that the universe IS fully deterministic, which means that individuals cannot act in any way except that which has been determined by everything that has gone before to create the them of now. What evidence should be convincing to someone who does not believe that humans have free will, that humans do indeed have free will?

The phenomena of creativity, our unique ability to truly create, what nature alone never could, unrestrained by an infinite chain of cause and effect.

But again I think the universe IS fully deterministic, from God's point of view, not ours.

Just as watching a rerun of the Cubs v Indians game, we know the outcome, while the p[layers are not only unaware of the outcome, they are free to influence it.


I take your point that we can't prove- that the players were not restricted in their actions, I'm just making the point that free will and fate can hypothetically coexist, if only from two different perspectives, and that's what we are looking at with God.

 

[David T]

The question is, does believing, not believing or agnosticism have anything to do with anything other than just the crAnium spinning into itself linguistically? It never seems to cross people's mind in opposition to religion that religious folks may have no clue to the the topic "god" let alone their own text..historical evidence points to that being true.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

The question is, does believing, not believing or agnosticism have anything to do with anything other than just the crAnium spinning into itself linguistically? It never seems to cross people's mind in opposition to religion that religious folks may have no clue to the the topic "god" let alone their own text..historical evidence points to that being true.

Exactly, actions reveal beliefs. If one truly believed he were being constantly watched by a Perfect and Invisible Sky-Emperor, he would have no sense of "privacy." Yet, I don't see professing "believers" expressing self-consciousness about their privacy. So, the only conclusion I can come to is that very few of them are actually convinced of the existence of an entity (God) that always watches them. The fact that no Abrahamic theist has yet been able to answer my argument about this reinforces my suspicion.

 

[David T]

Exactly, actions reveal beliefs. If one truly believed he were being constantly watched by a Perfect and Invisible Sky-Emperor, he would have no sense of "privacy." Yet, I don't see professing "believers" expressing self-consciousness about their privacy. So, the only conclusion I can come to is that very few of them are actually convinced of the existence of an entity (God) that always watches them. The fact that no Abrahamic theist has yet been able to answer my argument about this reinforces my suspicion.

What we are seeing is a slow degrade of theism into pseudo theism it's interesting how that works. The ken ham ark with dinosaurs on it, with the form of the building clearly an oil tanker is like the worst most clueless expression and totally nonsensical. I have spent over the last 5 years camping out in the summer the text is in the landscpe especially the new testamemt. I wasn't looking for it nature found me. When john muir said, "in going out, I discovered I was really going in". That's a something not many people ever do I highly recommend it.

 

[Esaurus]

I appreciate the friendly reply, although you still have not been able to refute my hypothesis that professing theists are not nearly as convinced of the existence of a supreme invisible deity as they claim to be. Since you replied I will ask you: Are you more self-conscious while using the toilet, showering, or engaging in other activities generally considered "private?" After all, if one would be embarrassed performing these tasks under the observation of another human, how much more embarrassing would it be to be watched by an all-powerful superman 24/7?

Hello Hubert,

I have questions for you. Did your mother invade your privacy when she gave little you a bath? Did she and the doctor invade your privacy when you were born? Or were you wearing clothes at the time? Are you sorry that your mom kept a constant eye on little you even when you defecated? I thought that mom and dad had better keep an eye on their little child! Or should they have not to keep from invading your privacy?

We are all far less than little babies in the sight of God! Are any of us able to build a bigger universe? What about providing the earth with a better sun? Even as we may be dressed against a sub-zero arctic winter, God sees even past our skin to see our hearts beating 24/7. Or do you prefer that He forget that your heart is beating? Why should we be ashamed to be seen by Him that made us? Am I deluded in my talk?

There is another kind of nakedness on our part that God is far more concerned about. It is exposure due to the lack of character. Go to your boss without the character manifested by your obedience to him. Give it a try! If you’re the boss let one of your followers try. Because of our fallen nature (can human nature be trusted?), only God by His power to redeem us is able to cover our nakedness by clothing us with His character that pleases Him and thus return us to peaceful fellowship with Him.

Take care,

Earl

 

[IndigoStorm]

In my experience many theists (particularly Christians and Muslims) like to tell atheists and agnostics that they know "in their heart" that God exists, but are suppressing the truth in their own "unrighteousness." I have even heard many apologists question whether the individuals that they are debating are "true atheists" and state that if they were "true atheists" they would not be wasting their time debating with theists. I would like to turn this type of behavior around to the other side. I am convinced that the vast majority of people who profess absolute certainty in the existence of a deity, as well as an afterlife of heaven or hell, do not actually believe what they profess to believe, or at least are far from certain about the existence of their deity and the eternal destinations of those who believe in it or disbelieve in it.

Think about it this way: How would one logically expect an individual to conduct his/her life if he/she were 100% certain of the existence of an invisible cosmic overlord who watches everything he/she does? Would one not be considerably more self-conscious, and careful not to slip up in life? Also, how would it feel to truly believe with 100% certainty that someone is always watching you and keeping a careful log of your behavior in the bathroom, shower, and bedroom? Yet the vast majority of theists probably are not self-conscious everytime they are going to the bathroom or engaging in private activities? Why? Aren't you 100% certain that an entity is watching you? If I were 100% certain an all-powerful cosmic entity was observing my every move, I would certainly be more careful in how I conduct my life. Also, if you believe that individuals who do not believe that an invisible, all-powerful creature is watching from above are destined to be sent to a fiery hell, would you not be more enthusiastic about sharing your beliefs with all unbelievers? Yet, the vast majority of professing "theists" never share their faith.

So, overall, how does one reconcile the professed beliefs of theists (absolute certainty in the existence of an invisible emperor that observes everyone's behavior at all times) and the fact that very few theists actually conduct their lives as if someone is always watching them?

Well if you a member of the RC Church, you just go to confession and the priest sorts things out with god. QED.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I have even heard many apologists question whether the individuals that they are debating are "true atheists" and state that if they were "true atheists" they would not be wasting their time debating with theists.

Only really wanted to respond to this...
Whilst I have heard similar, it always struck me as a bizarre point of view. After all, we 'waste time' debating with people with different political views to us. Because we share a world. Other people's points of view impact on us.
It's why atheists spend an inordinate amount of time arguing against Christianity and Islam. Whilst I can see how pagans might get upset about being lumped in with 'theists' in terms of arguments, I feel really sorry for many Jews, who get the 'Abrahamaic' treatment.

But at the same time, it is completely understandable. They're the ones most impacting on our world. I would argue politically with Conservatives or Liberals rather than the Canadian Extreme Wrestling Party, even though I'm more likely to have things in common with the Liberals than the wrestlers. They impact on my world more.