Are you a true Theist?

[james bond]

I would think that all monotheistic believers are convinced that God is observing them at all times. Isn't that a core belief of all monotheistic religions?

No, I doubt many think they're being observed or tracked at every moment. What makes you think that? The closest Christian religion that comes to mind are Catholics. They're incredibly strict and make one feel guilty for swearing, having lustful thoughts, overeating and so on. They have different types of sins -- original, venial and mortal. Eventually, one rebels against the authority whether they are people in the church, the religion or their parents.

I wouldn't overthink God's omniscience. You still have a choice of doing right or wrong. He can't change or influence the choice you make.

The key to any religion is practice. If one works for you, then try it out and use mindfulness to practice it fifteen minutes daily. It could be reading and understanding the Bible or meditating or just being mindful.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

No, I doubt many think they're being observed or tracked at every moment. What makes you think that? The closest Christian religion that comes to mind are Catholics. They're incredibly strict and make one feel guilty for swearing, having lustful thoughts, overeating and so on. They have different types of sins -- original, venial and mortal. Eventually, one rebels against the authority whether they are people in the church, the religion or their parents.

I wouldn't overthink God's omniscience. You still have a choice of doing right or wrong. He can't change or influence the choice you make.

The key to any religion is practice. If one works for you, then try it out and use mindfulness to practice it fifteen minutes daily. It could be reading and understanding the Bible or meditating or just being mindful.

Really? I've been to a couple of Baptist and other Holy Roller churches, and talked with followers of same, who insist that God is watching each and every one of us, all of our lives, and when the end comes, we'll all have to stand around watching a video instant-replay of our lives...then Judgement will be meted out.

 

[james bond]

Really? I've been to a couple of Baptist and other Holy Roller churches, and talked with followers of same, who insist that God is watching each and every one of us, all of our lives, and when the end comes, we'll all have to stand around watching a video instant-replay of our lives...then Judgement will be meted out.

Ah, the difference between an agnostic response and an atheist's. I wanted to know why beenherebeforeagain thought that because he was an agnostic. I doubt the response would be like an atheist who only lives to challenge the believers.

Anyway, my point was people do not think of the final judgment even though we know in the back of our heads it will happen. Is it like you do "not" think of it because you "know" final judgment won't happen? Adam and Eve probably didn't think of it when they were going about their lives in paradise. What happens when we do think of it is usually when we're about to do something we're going to feel guilty about. Our conscience starts to bother us. Isn't that what God gave us? Another evidence for God which I doubt you will listen to my atheist friend.

Can you guess why we have an immaterial conscience? It's because we're like Jesus.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Ah, the difference between an agnostic response and an atheist's. I wanted to know why beenherebeforeagain thought that because he was an agnostic. I doubt the response would be like an atheist who only lives to challenge the believers.

Anyway, my point was people do not think of the final judgment even though we know in the back of our heads it will happen. Is it like you do "not" think of it because you "know" final judgment won't happen? Adam and Eve probably didn't think of it when they were going about their lives in paradise. What happens when we do think of it is usually when we're about to do something we're going to feel guilty about. Our conscience starts to bother us. Isn't that what God gave us? Another evidence for God which I doubt you will listen to my atheist friend.

Can you guess why we have an immaterial conscience? It's because we're like Jesus.

Yes, I'm agnostic because I doubt that humans can ever truly know or understand much about the world. But I do understand both the theistic and atheistic points of view as related to modern and historical Christianity.

And despite your certainty that there will be a final judgment, and that we "all know this," I doubt this very much, just as I doubt your certainty about the nature of our conscience. I have no problem with YOU having that certainty, but I do not share it. And as long as you keep it to yourself, no worries at all.

 

[james bond]

Yes, I'm agnostic because I doubt that humans can ever truly know or understand much about the world. But I do understand both the theistic and atheistic points of view as related to modern and historical Christianity.

And despite your certainty that there will be a final judgment, and that we "all know this," I doubt this very much, just as I doubt your certainty about the nature of our conscience. I have no problem with YOU having that certainty, but I do not share it. And as long as you keep it to yourself, no worries at all.

I meant Hubert Farnsworth. You're an atheist if you ask me. You do not listen to believers. For example, why are you telling me to keep it to myself when internet atheists can go on claiming there is no God, afterlife and final judgment? Why don't you keep your opinions to yourself? The atheists favorite mode of the world ending is global warming. It doesn't have anything to do with God and the world being destroyed by fire That's just wrong. There is no global warming.

I have a right to state there will be no atheists in the afterlife. There is no evidence to convince atheists there is a God except pain and suffering. That is what they'll get and they will be banished to one of the levels of hell.

The Jehovah Witnesses think the world will end soon. I'm not so sure, but it will end sometime with the second coming of Jesus, not global warming. It's no wonder crazy liberals want to go to Mars for colonization in case of rampant global warming.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I wanted to know why beenherebeforeagain

I meant Hubert Farnsworth

Uhhhhh....sure....

Yeah, well, I've been told by atheists that I'm a theist, and by theists that I'm an atheist...I've stopped worrying about it...

As for the rest, I was responding to what you had directed to me in post 43 above...

 

[james bond]

Uhhhhh....sure....

Yeah, well, I've been told by atheists that I'm a theist, and by theists that I'm an atheist...I've stopped worrying about it...

As for the rest, I was responding to what you had directed to me in post 43 above...

Ha ha. That's funny in a quirky sort of way. I guess I thought you were because it sounded like you were making an argument instead of questioning a pov like an agnostic would do. Generally, an atheist would always make an argument. For example, C: The Earth is round. A: Your Bible says that it's flat and you believe in the Bible.

If you are an agnostic and questioning the existence of God, then it won't happen. You have to commit to the faith. Then your world changes and He reveals Himself to you. I guess atheists have the opposite happen to them. They commit to the faith of having evidence presented to them when in reality there is no evidence that exists that will convince them. It's funny how faith works.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Ha ha. That's funny in a quirky sort of way. I guess I thought you were because it sounded like you were making an argument instead of questioning a pov like an agnostic would do. Generally, an atheist would always make an argument. For example, C: The Earth is round. A: Your Bible says that it's flat and you believe in the Bible.

If you are an agnostic and questioning the existence of God, then it won't happen. You have to commit to the faith. Then your world changes and He reveals Himself to you. I guess atheists have the opposite happen to them. They commit to the faith of having evidence presented to them when in reality there is no evidence that exists that will convince them. It's funny how faith works.

Oh, so agnostics can only ask questions? Hardly. I am familiar with both sides of the discussion, and for rhetorical reasons, can take any of the three sides...but usually I try to get others to think about their beliefs from a different perspective.

I don't question the existence of God; I realize that any such universal deity that would be able to know and understand me in any reasonable sense of the word is quite simply beyond my comprehension (and I strongly suspect beyond the comprehension of any human). While intellectually I can understand that there is a difference between a 100 million candlepower searchlight and a 100 billion candlepower searchlight; at a distance of a foot, my senses are overwhelmed by either. You can tell me one is brighter than the other, but I cannot tell which...and you may not be telling the truth to me about it.

While I understand that others hold beliefs about God, I wonder at those who spend much time and effort trying to demonstrate that God does or does not exist. I thus find myself sometimes getting involved in these discussions on RF.

Interestingly enough, when I was young, I and a born-again experience...and then the powers of the universe kept showing me the hypocrisy of most of the leaders and many of the followers who claimed to be following Jesus...and kept leading me to, rather than accept ANYTHING without critical review, to question everything, and to reserve judgment as much as possible. Every time I approached any issue through faith alone--or worse, though the common beliefs of others and the leadership of religious organizations--my experiences showed me I was in error.

Thing is, I have never rejected that born-again experience. However, my understanding of the universe has changed (and continues to do so), and thus, my understanding of all of my experiences: I am a small being in a very large universe, with limited senses and intellectual capabilities. When I see hundreds of different interpretations all claiming to be the truth, and that I just have to accept that as fact with no evidence...let's just say I think I have a very good basis for skepticism.

 

[james bond]

Oh, so agnostics can only ask questions? Hardly. I am familiar with both sides of the discussion, and for rhetorical reasons, can take any of the three sides...but usually I try to get others to think about their beliefs from a different perspective.

I don't question the existence of God; I realize that any such universal deity that would be able to know and understand me in any reasonable sense of the word is quite simply beyond my comprehension (and I strongly suspect beyond the comprehension of any human). While intellectually I can understand that there is a difference between a 100 million candlepower searchlight and a 100 billion candlepower searchlight; at a distance of a foot, my senses are overwhelmed by either. You can tell me one is brighter than the other, but I cannot tell which...and you may not be telling the truth to me about it.

While I understand that others hold beliefs about God, I wonder at those who spend much time and effort trying to demonstrate that God does or does not exist. I thus find myself sometimes getting involved in these discussions on RF.

Interestingly enough, when I was young, I and a born-again experience...and then the powers of the universe kept showing me the hypocrisy of most of the leaders and many of the followers who claimed to be following Jesus...and kept leading me to, rather than accept ANYTHING without critical review, to question everything, and to reserve judgment as much as possible. Every time I approached any issue through faith alone--or worse, though the common beliefs of others and the leadership of religious organizations--my experiences showed me I was in error.

Thing is, I have never rejected that born-again experience. However, my understanding of the universe has changed (and continues to do so), and thus, my understanding of all of my experiences: I am a small being in a very large universe, with limited senses and intellectual capabilities. When I see hundreds of different interpretations all claiming to be the truth, and that I just have to accept that as fact with no evidence...let's just say I think I have a very good basis for skepticism.

I do not mean a hard and fast truth that only agnostics ask questions. Generally speaking, they are more open minded than atheists whose minds are already made up. I think I put you with the atheists because you state that you have a very good basis for skepticism. The Christian faith isn't easy and there is much reading to do in the Bible. I have to use Bible leaders, gotquestions.org, christiananswers.net and others to get a good interpretation and understanding of the Bible. To me, it's a lifelong endeavor. There are times that I have been skeptical or negative, but I pray that I am lead on the right path again and it happens. Going to church helps in getting in tune with God which is a straight line upward from the perpendicular line that you stand on. What happens is as we experience life thinking we are heading the right direction, we could be trapped in our own way of thinking and get away from the true path. Even a slight degree being off can lead us in the wrong direction after some time. Thus, it's important to go to church and receive the sermon and talk with fellow believers in order to remain on the true line straight up. Think of it like the line of the cross in the vertical direction.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I do not mean a hard and fast truth that only agnostics ask questions. Generally speaking, they are more open minded than atheists whose minds are already made up. I think I put you with the atheists because you state that you have a very good basis for skepticism. The Christian faith isn't easy and there is much reading to do in the Bible. I have to use Bible leaders, gotquestions.org, christiananswers.net and others to get a good interpretation and understanding of the Bible. To me, it's a lifelong endeavor. There are times that I have been skeptical or negative, but I pray that I am lead on the right path again and it happens. Going to church helps in getting in tune with God which is a straight line upward from the perpendicular line that you stand on. What happens is as we experience life thinking we are heading the right direction, we could be trapped in our own way of thinking and get away from the true path. Even a slight degree being off can lead us in the wrong direction after some time. Thus, it's important to go to church and receive the sermon and talk with fellow believers in order to remain on the true line straight up. Think of it like the line of the cross in the vertical direction.

Skepticism pretty much = agnostic.

There are many who say they are atheists, but are really agnostic. There are many who say they are theists, but are really agnostic. There are those who say that if one is agnostic, one must be either an Atheistic Agnostic, or a Theistic Agnostic. But it really doesn't matter.

I am skeptical of the ability of any humans to know whether there is or is not a universal omnimax deity; I understand that you believe that there is, and others believe that there isn't. I don't hold a belief either way, except in that I doubt anyone's ability to know.

As you say, Christianity (at least can be) hard work. My experience with it was that many, even leaders in congregations, including the ministers, haven't really challenged themselves in regards to their Christianity--and they resent those who do ask the difficult questions...

And then I looked into some other religions and their sacred stories, and how their teachers and members understand those stories...and found that most hold the same certainty about their beliefs in the face of it being unlikely that any human could actually comprehend a universal omnimax deity of any sort...and that such a deity would express the positions often seen in the stories and interpretations...

But the explanation that, oh, the devil is leading you astray by feeding my doubts, or that if only I'd read the gospels with an open heart and mind I would understand...well, that's just nonsense--let's just say I see no evidence that it is true, any more than I see evidence that the religious texts and interpretations are true. If there is a God, it created me/allowed me to be born with and/or develop this Doubting Thomas comprehension of the world. If it really knows me and all about me, it knows how and why I have become the way I've become, and will deal with me accordingly. No amount of going to church will make any difference. Needless to say, I am skeptical of the fire and brimstone point of view...as well as the "there ain't no god" view, too...

 

[james bond]

Skepticism pretty much = agnostic.

There are many who say they are atheists, but are really agnostic. There are many who say they are theists, but are really agnostic. There are those who say that if one is agnostic, one must be either an Atheistic Agnostic, or a Theistic Agnostic. But it really doesn't matter.

I am skeptical of the ability of any humans to know whether there is or is not a universal omnimax deity; I understand that you believe that there is, and others believe that there isn't. I don't hold a belief either way, except in that I doubt anyone's ability to know.

As you say, Christianity (at least can be) hard work. My experience with it was that many, even leaders in congregations, including the ministers, haven't really challenged themselves in regards to their Christianity--and they resent those who do ask the difficult questions...

And then I looked into some other religions and their sacred stories, and how their teachers and members understand those stories...and found that most hold the same certainty about their beliefs in the face of it being unlikely that any human could actually comprehend a universal omnimax deity of any sort...and that such a deity would express the positions often seen in the stories and interpretations...

But the explanation that, oh, the devil is leading you astray by feeding my doubts, or that if only I'd read the gospels with an open heart and mind I would understand...well, that's just nonsense--let's just say I see no evidence that it is true, any more than I see evidence that the religious texts and interpretations are true. If there is a God, it created me/allowed me to be born with and/or develop this Doubting Thomas comprehension of the world. If it really knows me and all about me, it knows how and why I have become the way I've become, and will deal with me accordingly. No amount of going to church will make any difference. Needless to say, I am skeptical of the fire and brimstone point of view...as well as the "there ain't no god" view, too...

Sorry, I guess I still think of you as atheist instead of agnostic, but whatever. It's just a label or stereotype.

The only thing I can leave you with are two facts. One is your world exists because you exist. In other words, your worldview exists because you exist. My theory is to hold a worldview, one needs to have "faith" since no worldview can be validated. Let's look at the definition of faith:

1. a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty <lost faith in the company's president>b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions <acted in good faith>
   
   
2. 2a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religionb (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof <clinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return> (2) : complete trust
   
   
3. 3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

The faith I am referring to is either "firm belief in something for which there is no proof" or "something that is believed especially with strong conviction."

The second fact is we all die alone. It does not matter who you are, but this signifies that your world (worldview) ends with you. Your worldview could have been influenced and shaped by education, others, books, ideas or just what you understood of the world and more. Within this worldview, we have memories, thoughts, e.g. ideas, logic, religion, consciousness (?), etc., feelings, and all the immaterial things that we all have.

So, in-between that time our world begins to exist and the time you die alone we have done what we could to accumulate all of the immaterial and material things. The material things do not last. We cannot take our favorite book, gadget, toy or whatever with us. What supposedly remains are the immaterial things and the things that are within your heart.

What you choose to believe remains is up to you.