• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Are you a true Theist?

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
In my experience many theists (particularly Christians and Muslims) like to tell atheists and agnostics that they know "in their heart" that God exists, but are suppressing the truth in their own "unrighteousness." I have even heard many apologists question whether the individuals that they are debating are "true atheists" and state that if they were "true atheists" they would not be wasting their time debating with theists. I would like to turn this type of behavior around to the other side. I am convinced that the vast majority of people who profess absolute certainty in the existence of a deity, as well as an afterlife of heaven or hell, do not actually believe what they profess to believe, or at least are far from certain about the existence of their deity and the eternal destinations of those who believe in it or disbelieve in it.

Think about it this way: How would one logically expect an individual to conduct his/her life if he/she were 100% certain of the existence of an invisible cosmic overlord who watches everything he/she does? Would one not be considerably more self-conscious, and careful not to slip up in life? Also, how would it feel to truly believe with 100% certainty that someone is always watching you and keeping a careful log of your behavior in the bathroom, shower, and bedroom? Yet the vast majority of theists probably are not self-conscious everytime they are going to the bathroom or engaging in private activities? Why? Aren't you 100% certain that an entity is watching you? If I were 100% certain an all-powerful cosmic entity was observing my every move, I would certainly be more careful in how I conduct my life. Also, if you believe that individuals who do not believe that an invisible, all-powerful creature is watching from above are destined to be sent to a fiery hell, would you not be more enthusiastic about sharing your beliefs with all unbelievers? Yet, the vast majority of professing "theists" never share their faith.

So, overall, how does one reconcile the professed beliefs of theists (absolute certainty in the existence of an invisible emperor that observes everyone's behavior at all times) and the fact that very few theists actually conduct their lives as if someone is always watching them?
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Well I'm a theist who believes that the nature of reality is God, all occurs as God's play and that my true self is one with God in every way. So I think what you're saying only applies to some theists.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
In my experience many theists (particularly Christians and Muslims) like to tell atheists and agnostics that they know "in their heart" that God exists, but are suppressing the truth in their own "unrighteousness." I have even heard many apologists question whether the individuals that they are debating are "true atheists" and state that if they were "true atheists" they would not be wasting their time debating with theists. I would like to turn this type of behavior around to the other side. I am convinced that the vast majority of people who profess absolute certainty in the existence of a deity, as well as an afterlife of heaven or hell, do not actually believe what they profess to believe, or at least are far from certain about the existence of their deity and the eternal destinations of those who believe in it or disbelieve in it.

Think about it this way: How would one logically expect an individual to conduct his/her life if he/she were 100% certain of the existence of an invisible cosmic overlord who watches everything he/she does? Would one not be considerably more self-conscious, and careful not to slip up in life? Also, how would it feel to truly believe with 100% certainty that someone is always watching you and keeping a careful log of your behavior in the bathroom, shower, and bedroom? Yet the vast majority of theists probably are not self-conscious everytime they are going to the bathroom or engaging in private activities? Why? Aren't you 100% certain that an entity is watching you? If I were 100% certain an all-powerful cosmic entity was observing my every move, I would certainly be more careful in how I conduct my life. Also, if you believe that individuals who do not believe that an invisible, all-powerful creature is watching from above are destined to be sent to a fiery hell, would you not be more enthusiastic about sharing your beliefs with all unbelievers? Yet, the vast majority of professing "theists" never share their faith.

So, overall, how does one reconcile the professed beliefs of theists (absolute certainty in the existence of an invisible emperor that observes everyone's behavior at all times) and the fact that very few theists actually conduct their lives as if someone is always watching them?

I've always suspected that atheists/skeptics have a much more comprehensive and examined understanding of what "belief" actually is, and what it entails - hence, why they don't claim to hold beliefs that so many other people readily do.

I think, for many people, their concept of belief is so shallow as to be meaningless. Whether it's a lack of drive to fully examine what belief is, or a lack of ability to comprehend it's ramifications, I don't know.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
In my experience many theists (particularly Christians and Muslims) like to tell atheists and agnostics that they know "in their heart" that God exists, but are suppressing the truth in their own "unrighteousness." I have even heard many apologists question whether the individuals that they are debating are "true atheists" and state that if they were "true atheists" they would not be wasting their time debating with theists. I would like to turn this type of behavior around to the other side. I am convinced that the vast majority of people who profess absolute certainty in the existence of a deity, as well as an afterlife of heaven or hell, do not actually believe what they profess to believe, or at least are far from certain about the existence of their deity and the eternal destinations of those who believe in it or disbelieve in it.

Think about it this way: How would one logically expect an individual to conduct his/her life if he/she were 100% certain of the existence of an invisible cosmic overlord who watches everything he/she does? Would one not be considerably more self-conscious, and careful not to slip up in life? Also, how would it feel to truly believe with 100% certainty that someone is always watching you and keeping a careful log of your behavior in the bathroom, shower, and bedroom? Yet the vast majority of theists probably are not self-conscious everytime they are going to the bathroom or engaging in private activities? Why? Aren't you 100% certain that an entity is watching you? If I were 100% certain an all-powerful cosmic entity was observing my every move, I would certainly be more careful in how I conduct my life. Also, if you believe that individuals who do not believe that an invisible, all-powerful creature is watching from above are destined to be sent to a fiery hell, would you not be more enthusiastic about sharing your beliefs with all unbelievers? Yet, the vast majority of professing "theists" never share their faith.

So, overall, how does one reconcile the professed beliefs of theists (absolute certainty in the existence of an invisible emperor that observes everyone's behavior at all times) and the fact that very few theists actually conduct their lives as if someone is always watching them?

Let me ask. Where are you getting the definitions of god from? The people? The Quran/Bible?

If you're getting it from the people, it's best to listen to how they define god for themselves. If one theist says god is a deity in union with him and another says god is a deity outside watching him, respect that they both are theists and see deities different. Even more so, respect that even if their actions don't reflect how they say their deity is supposed to act, that doesn't mean they don't believe. It just means they are growing in their faith.

Also "absolute certainty in the existence of an invisible emperor that observes everyone's behavior at all times" is not the definition of theism any more than more than one emperor is the definition of polytheism.

Has god existed in your life? If so, how did you define him personally? Did you define him based on the reflection of how other people saw him or how you define him for yourself? Since you use the Quran as well, did you know the Creator has many different definitions from that of Hindu to that of many African religions?

Like @Rival says. Broaden your horizons a bit.

Not all theists have that mindset, nor are all theists christians and muslims. Some people define deity as an actual entity, others, like myself, define a deity as spirit and don't even use the word deity at all. God just means object or person of worship. How you define god whether person or thing is up to you?

There are so many objects, where does the bias come from if you actually knew what people believed and not believe?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think that if God watches me God should have made me beautiful.

There seems to be a word missing from the English language. The word would describe someone who watches another for the good of that person.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I think that if God watches me God should have made me beautiful.

There seems to be a word missing from the English language. The word would describe someone who watches another for the good of that person.

There will definitely be a word for it. We just don't know it. Something a bit like guardian or overseer, but less active.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There will definitely be a word for it. We just don't know it. Something a bit like guardian or overseer, but less active.
I thought more like Au pair, but without any breaks.

A guardian or overseer isn't also a watcher.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
So, overall, how does one reconcile the professed beliefs of theists (absolute certainty in the existence of an invisible emperor that observes everyone's behavior at all times) and the fact that very few theists actually conduct their lives as if someone is always watching them?
I am a pantheist (God/Brahman and creation are not-two). I feel certain of my belief beyond reasonable doubt.

I try to conduct myself in a state of peace with all and love with all. Some of things you mentioned like going to the bathroom, showering and sexuality are just parts of life. You are thinking of God like some spying fellow human watching you do your business.

As for vehemently trying to convince others, that is usually going to be futile. But you are just pointing to the most narrow theistic thinking that one must believe a certain way to avoid hell. I do not hold such narrow thinking and only a continually declining numbers of theists actually think that narrowly.

So my answer to the OP title question is: Yes, I am a true theist.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Another rant expecting monotheists to be perfect. Also very Christianity and Islam centred. Broaden your horizons a bit..?

No, not expecting monotheists to be perfect at all. However, I am expecting (based upon the professed beliefs of monotheists) to be more self-conscious and careful about their behavior in every aspect of their lives. After all, absolute believe in an all-powerful overlord monitoring one's every move and thought entails extremely careful watch over one's behavior.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
In my experience many theists (particularly Christians and Muslims) like to tell atheists and agnostics that they know "in their heart" that God exists, but are suppressing the truth in their own "unrighteousness." I have even heard many apologists question whether the individuals that they are debating are "true atheists" and state that if they were "true atheists" they would not be wasting their time debating with theists. I would like to turn this type of behavior around to the other side. I am convinced that the vast majority of people who profess absolute certainty in the existence of a deity, as well as an afterlife of heaven or hell, do not actually believe what they profess to believe, or at least are far from certain about the existence of their deity and the eternal destinations of those who believe in it or disbelieve in it.

Think about it this way: How would one logically expect an individual to conduct his/her life if he/she were 100% certain of the existence of an invisible cosmic overlord who watches everything he/she does? Would one not be considerably more self-conscious, and careful not to slip up in life? Also, how would it feel to truly believe with 100% certainty that someone is always watching you and keeping a careful log of your behavior in the bathroom, shower, and bedroom? Yet the vast majority of theists probably are not self-conscious everytime they are going to the bathroom or engaging in private activities? Why? Aren't you 100% certain that an entity is watching you? If I were 100% certain an all-powerful cosmic entity was observing my every move, I would certainly be more careful in how I conduct my life. Also, if you believe that individuals who do not believe that an invisible, all-powerful creature is watching from above are destined to be sent to a fiery hell, would you not be more enthusiastic about sharing your beliefs with all unbelievers? Yet, the vast majority of professing "theists" never share their faith.

So, overall, how does one reconcile the professed beliefs of theists (absolute certainty in the existence of an invisible emperor that observes everyone's behavior at all times) and the fact that very few theists actually conduct their lives as if someone is always watching them?
I'm a theist in the sense that I believe that there are countless deities in their own spheres. They're focused on enjoying the pleasures of their offices and on relieving their own sufferings, and are not generally focused on us or our activities - just like we don't pay much attention to the activities of insects around us.

In this system, the Law of Kamma should be the teacher. I can only point it out to others, and I do.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
In my experience many theists (particularly Christians and Muslims) like to tell atheists and agnostics that they know "in their heart" that God exists, but are suppressing the truth in their own "unrighteousness." I have even heard many apologists question whether the individuals that they are debating are "true atheists" and state that if they were "true atheists" they would not be wasting their time debating with theists.

Haha! Well, you probably wouldn't catch this theist saying something silly like that. :D
If it makes you feel any better, the type of theist you are talking about would be just as likely to say that crap to me, too. That I "know in my heart" that the gods I worship aren't "true" gods, blah, blah, blah. It seems you're taking issue with proselytizing more than anything else. I don't like it either. It's all kinds of annoying.


I would like to turn this type of behavior around to the other side. I am convinced that the vast majority of people who profess absolute certainty in the existence of a deity, as well as an afterlife of heaven or hell, do not actually believe what they profess to believe, or at least are far from certain about the existence of their deity and the eternal destinations of those who believe in it or disbelieve in it.

How about we don't turn this type of behavior around to the other side, because this is mighty presumptuous. It's about the same level of annoying as some preacher or marketer claiming to know what's in my heart and then completely ignoring me when I explain to them how I actually feel. It never strikes me as a good idea to ignore what people tell you and overwrite it with your own narrative. It's disrespectful, and it means you are judging them rather than listening to them to try and understand where they are coming from. Make sense?

Think about it this way: How would one logically expect an individual to conduct his/her life if he/she were 100% certain of the existence of an invisible cosmic overlord who watches everything he/she does?

*blinks* Er... what? I don't know what this "invisible cosmic overlord" that you're talking about is. You're going to have to explain that one to us. On the other hand, maybe don't. It's better to have various theists describe their gods to you rather than have an outsider make really strange and inaccurate caricatures like this.


Would one not be considerably more self-conscious, and careful not to slip up in life?

I don't see why. Some people would, some people wouldn't. People are different from each other like that. Besides, do an experiment for me. Try, for a full day, to constantly think about one thing at every moment of the day. Can't do it? Of course not... neither can most other human. We're not really wired that way. It takes serious dedication and discipline of mind to do that. It's something few possess, and fewer desire to train within themselves. Those who very religiously practice meditation can do it, but it's not a common thing to see in people. The inability of the human mind to normally fixate on something every waking moment isn't a reflection of the beliefs of that person, it reflects human limitations and capabilities.

Aside from that, others have already pointed out that your scenario really doesn't apply to many theists. The subset of theists that your argument might apply to also have other religious teachings that address this point, as far as I'm aware. The Christians have a bunch of stuff about how to absolve oneself from sin, for example, and different standards for their "being saved" thing. But I'll let them tell you about it, because I don't really get it as an outsider.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Well, if there is a cosmic omnimax creator watching everything we do and say, watching everything I do and say, well, let's just say that I can't comprehend such a being. And, despite the claim to be all-knowing, etc., I just don't see how anything that is so much larger than I am can really know what it's like to be a human, any more than we can know what it's like to be a microbe, or an electron. If it can, again, it's well beyond my comprehension.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
I am still awaiting responses from Christians/Muslims or others who profess that they believe they are under the constant, close observation of an invisible superman.
 

Maponos

Welcome to the Opera
I'm assuming this is a response to my thread, though I am not of an Abrahamic faith.

In polytheistic faiths, we don't typically believe that the gods lord over everyone. They do their own things with mortals that interest them or other gods.
 
In my experience many theists (particularly Christians and Muslims) like to tell atheists and agnostics that they know "in their heart" that God exists, but are suppressing the truth in their own "unrighteousness." I have even heard many apologists question whether the individuals that they are debating are "true atheists" and state that if they were "true atheists" they would not be wasting their time debating with theists. I would like to turn this type of behavior around to the other side. I am convinced that the vast majority of people who profess absolute certainty in the existence of a deity, as well as an afterlife of heaven or hell, do not actually believe what they profess to believe, or at least are far from certain about the existence of their deity and the eternal destinations of those who believe in it or disbelieve in it.

Think about it this way: How would one logically expect an individual to conduct his/her life if he/she were 100% certain of the existence of an invisible cosmic overlord who watches everything he/she does? Would one not be considerably more self-conscious, and careful not to slip up in life? Also, how would it feel to truly believe with 100% certainty that someone is always watching you and keeping a careful log of your behavior in the bathroom, shower, and bedroom? Yet the vast majority of theists probably are not self-conscious everytime they are going to the bathroom or engaging in private activities? Why? Aren't you 100% certain that an entity is watching you? If I were 100% certain an all-powerful cosmic entity was observing my every move, I would certainly be more careful in how I conduct my life. Also, if you believe that individuals who do not believe that an invisible, all-powerful creature is watching from above are destined to be sent to a fiery hell, would you not be more enthusiastic about sharing your beliefs with all unbelievers? Yet, the vast majority of professing "theists" never share their faith.

So, overall, how does one reconcile the professed beliefs of theists (absolute certainty in the existence of an invisible emperor that observes everyone's behavior at all times) and the fact that very few theists actually conduct their lives as if someone is always watching them?

You are thinking of Abrahamic Theists.
The idea that the Horned One is watching me constantly is ... preposterous. Nor can I imagine him judging my sex life.
 
Well, if there is a cosmic omnimax creator watching everything we do and say, watching everything I do and say, well, let's just say that I can't comprehend such a being. And, despite the claim to be all-knowing, etc., I just don't see how anything that is so much larger than I am can really know what it's like to be a human, any more than we can know what it's like to be a microbe, or an electron. If it can, again, it's well beyond my comprehension.

Why would an all knowing God need to watch? According to the Bible he knew the end before the beginnings, and knows your thoughts before you think them.
I imagine actually watching would be rather like watching a movie over, and over, and OVER....
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Why would an all knowing God need to watch? According to the Bible he knew the end before the beginnings, and knows your thoughts before you think them.
I imagine actually watching would be rather like watching a movie over, and over, and OVER....
If such a deity knows everything about me, and my life, and everything else in the universe, it knows that I cannot actually choose to be anything other than what/who I am. And if in fact said deity knows all, HeSheItThem knows why I am the way I am, and what it would take to make me be the kind of person HSIT wants me to be...but HSIT will not make it so that I will be that person, and will therefore condemn me to Hell because I won't be what it wants...

That's incomprehensible to me...And if it bothers to watch things play out as it determined long, long ago, then it's even less comprehensible...

OTOH, if I really do have free will, then I don't see such a deity as really being omnimax...I don't really have a problem with that, but I'm not the one claiming that the creator deity watches over our every action...but even if it's not omnimax, even if it's only a few orders of magnitude larger/wiser/whatever, HSIT would still be incomprehensible...:p
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
In my experience many theists (particularly Christians and Muslims) like to tell atheists and agnostics that they know "in their heart" that God exists, but are suppressing the truth in their own "unrighteousness." I have even heard many apologists question whether the individuals that they are debating are "true atheists" and state that if they were "true atheists" they would not be wasting their time debating with theists. I would like to turn this type of behavior around to the other side. I am convinced that the vast majority of people who profess absolute certainty in the existence of a deity, as well as an afterlife of heaven or hell, do not actually believe what they profess to believe, or at least are far from certain about the existence of their deity and the eternal destinations of those who believe in it or disbelieve in it.

Think about it this way: How would one logically expect an individual to conduct his/her life if he/she were 100% certain of the existence of an invisible cosmic overlord who watches everything he/she does? Would one not be considerably more self-conscious, and careful not to slip up in life? Also, how would it feel to truly believe with 100% certainty that someone is always watching you and keeping a careful log of your behavior in the bathroom, shower, and bedroom? Yet the vast majority of theists probably are not self-conscious everytime they are going to the bathroom or engaging in private activities? Why? Aren't you 100% certain that an entity is watching you? If I were 100% certain an all-powerful cosmic entity was observing my every move, I would certainly be more careful in how I conduct my life. Also, if you believe that individuals who do not believe that an invisible, all-powerful creature is watching from above are destined to be sent to a fiery hell, would you not be more enthusiastic about sharing your beliefs with all unbelievers? Yet, the vast majority of professing "theists" never share their faith.

So, overall, how does one reconcile the professed beliefs of theists (absolute certainty in the existence of an invisible emperor that observes everyone's behavior at all times) and the fact that very few theists actually conduct their lives as if someone is always watching them?

Let him without sin cast the first stone!

We are all sinners, God knows that, many of us do also. I don't think he is particularly interested in our bathroom visits! but when we are tempted to do something we know is bad for us, or selfish- or the opposite, when we try to sanctify ourselves, be kind to others- yes I think it's a positive motivation. And the proof is in the pudding, before Christianity, the most advanced civilizations considered watching human sacrifice and torture the height of entertainment.

But on absolute certainty? Like most people of faith, I acknowledge my beliefs as such, blind faith does not recognize itself. How about atheists? Many I've talked to here are very reluctant to even acknowledge their own beliefs as such
 
Top