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Featured Are rapists going to Hell?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Grumpuss, Jul 17, 2017 at 1:28 PM.

  1. Grumpuss

    Grumpuss Active Member

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    As enlightened and compassionate as modern society has become towards gender equality, women continue in many ways to be second class citizens, if not outright slaves. Women in some countries and cultures obviously have it better than others. The extent to which family and obligation play into the formula often include the presence of a religion. Segregation, arranged marriages and even underage coupling are all widespread practices, even today, depending on which parts of the world you're referring to, and through which cultural lens. The crimes may seem quite serious to a more objective, 3rd party observer, but it is entirely possible, even likely that many of the people perpetrating them maintain a personal belief in God. They may even be devout members of an established religion, which may or may not provide internal guidance on how a woman's sexual rights are respected.

    How one conducts himself/herself in life would therefore follow some kind of path to salvation, whether it be an Abrahamic God, Hindu pantheon, Buddhist spirit, etc. It would follow for those believers who are not living gods, that the rules were designed by others and we can not rewrite them to suit our own subject experience of judgment of ourselves. Being respectful to the part of society that is more than 50% of the population and not violating them, as we are told the god(s) of our faith want can and will clash against what many consider to be being a good acolyte. While we hope and expect we have kind and merciless deities to at least partially absolve us when mental derangement is a mitigating factor, what is the effect upon our immortal souls and/or spiritual afterlife when we force women to have sex against their will?

    [​IMG]
    Yeah, maybe she was beaten and gang-raped. But... religion says it's her fault for going out unescorted after dark?

    Please know that what one religion may consider foul and sin-worthy can be quite different than what another may consider tolerable. I am not looking for any rants explaining why one religion's worldview is superior to all others, or how defensible you consider it to rape someone, based on the woman's place in society, her permissiveness or previous conduct. It's always complicated, but the presence of a crying victim kind of speaks for itself, no matter how the rapist rationalizes it to himself. Myself, I believe this is a question left up to God to judge who shall be rewarded with bliss and who is damned. To pass judgment on others for what happens in the afterlife, is to speak for God, and is a sin. But we can of course keep asking questions and try to live well, free from chaos.

    Is it a sin to rape a woman in all situations, and to procreate, even when it involves doing so against a woman's will? Arranged marriages and expected obligations of women are still very much common practice. And to what extent are the machinations of demons (if you believe in their influence) to be blamed or mitigated against?
     
  2. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Interesting topic, Grumpuss. I think it is a sin to rape a woman under any circumstance. Do arranged marriages that the woman does not want count? I don't know.
     
  3. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

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    No, because Hell doesn't exist
     
  4. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    The thread is not addressed to people who don't think hell exists.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  5. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

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    OK.
     
  6. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    What about normal marriages? Do you believe women are obligated to give their husbands sex for as long as they want it, and vice versa?
     
  7. Grumpuss

    Grumpuss Active Member

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    Ironically, many of the same liberal wack-a-doodles who attack any criticism of Islam or Hinduism, fail to note the abuses against women adherents of these religions commit. Catholics and Orthodox Jews have engaged in a less public version or abuse for decades.
     
  8. Grumpuss

    Grumpuss Active Member

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    The crime of "marital rape" is fairly new to society. Secular society has finally begun to cast judgment on something that just 10 years ago was considered an impossibility (though it may still be difficult to prosecute).

    But most religions already considered abuse of women to be a grave crime, and would say so in scripture. So is the husband who hits his wife because she refuses sex, and then proceeds to forcibly rape her, "wrong"? In his own mind, I am wondering if he thinks he is going to Hell or not.
     
  9. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    In enlightened society they are not outright slaves.

    I think mothers are the primary source of all religiosity and of culture. They are the prime representatives of all religions. You change the mothers and that changes the religion. Those who wish to eliminate religion need only eliminate all mothers (which I am not suggesting).

    Does the lion pay a price for tormenting a mouse? Does the bird who eats an egg suffer in hell?

    If we presume that there is an afterlife, then we are probably presuming too much. Most people who believe in an afterlife believe it because of what their mothers told them or what their fathers told them. The question remains though: does a lion pay for tearing a mouse to pieces? Does a vicious dog pay for tearing off the face of a human child? How? Why do unjust people enjoy pleasure?

    This is an interesting topic and one that I am not educated about. I think women and men are both somewhat compelled by biology and altered brain chemistry, but I think that we should attempt to hold responsible those who force their will upon another although justice is not always clear in every case. When it is unclear we should withhold judgment I think.
     
  10. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Well, many people just use certain religious beliefs as an excuse to do evil. In most cases they're wrong but if they can justify it somehow, people will.

    Rape is rape. When a person says NO then it's rape if you don't stop.
     
  11. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    Bible says both the husband and wife are obligated to have sex with the other until both agree to stop. But in an orderly manner at an arranged time. So not to say the wife can't refuse sex if the husband wants it at a bad time. Beating a wife is not part of the discussion since that is not rape.
     
  12. Grumpuss

    Grumpuss Active Member

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    I wonder if arranged marriage should be used as a euphemism for rape also. It's done against the woman's will, and nearly always with the express purpose of producing children.
     
  13. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    And where exactly did you read that?
     
  14. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    To me it does, but I do not believe in trying to force my values on other cultures.
     
  15. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    In the bible, one of Pauls writings. What will you give me if I find it again?
     
  16. Grumpuss

    Grumpuss Active Member

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    The Old Testament is quite a bit rapey: Numbers 31:7, Judges 21:10-24, and these:

    Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

    As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

    Deuteronomy 22:28-29

    If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

    Deuteronomy 22:23-24

    If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

    Later the Bible, mostly in the New Testament speaks of the virtues of protecting women, but this would certainly make it confusing on the first read.

    The Quran is also fairly barbaric towards women and rape:

    Quran 4:24

    Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives because of their pagan husbands. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess". That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period."

    Sahih Muslim 8:3371 hadith

    Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): O Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.

    I know the ISIS guys believe they're on the path to Heaven, but I wonder what the guy who marries a 13-yr-old or who forces his wife to have sex thinks about this.
     
  17. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    A big golden star for your forehead. I pretty much can guarantee you that Paul said no such things. Women being "submissive to their husbands" is simply not the same, nor may it be automatically applied to sexual relations.
     
  18. Grumpuss

    Grumpuss Active Member

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    No one asked you to. I'm wondering what your opinion one someone else is who considers their conduct towards salvation when they commit what their faith considers a fairly egregious sin.
     
  19. Dead Water Fountain

    Dead Water Fountain Tantra, Voodoo/Voudon, Black Magic, seiðr

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    There are many negative vortexes of energy in the astral.
     
  20. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    He did say it, but I don't want a gold star on my forehead.
     
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