• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Are Muslim Women Oppressed, or Most Free Women in the World?

MaddLlama

Obstructor of justice
If any woman can't tell the difference between a man who is only paying attention to her breasts or figure, and a man who is actually paying attention to what she says, then she does not deserve the affections of either.

I have no issues using the way I look to catch the attention of a man, because it is my brain that will keep them. And, if they're not interested in that, it's not that hard to tell and I have no issues cutting them loose. If men want to keep a woman, they must learn to get her respect and give it back whether or not she wears hip-hugger jeans. It isn't my fault that most men can't seem to think beyond thier groin, and I shouldn't have to limit myself because men are limited.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
How would you feel if your daughter came up to you with crazy tight jeans, and a revealing shirt then says "See ya mom, going to the mall."? I know I would feel uncomfortable...
So why not a dress code that covers both genders?

I don't think anyone has argued against modesty, the argument is against an unequal standard.
 

Ezzedean

Active Member
JerryL said:
So why not a dress code that covers both genders?

I don't think anyone has argued against modesty, the argument is against an unequal standard.

Actually God tells us men to dress at our best and with respect for ourselves. We are supposed to be clean and presentable at all times.

MaddLlama said:
If any woman can't tell the difference between a man who is only paying attention to her breasts or figure, and a man who is actually paying attention to what she says, then she does not deserve the affections of either.

I have no issues using the way I look to catch the attention of a man, because it is my brain that will keep them. And, if they're not interested in that, it's not that hard to tell and I have no issues cutting them loose. If men want to keep a woman, they must learn to get her respect and give it back whether or not she wears hip-hugger jeans. It isn't my fault that most men can't seem to think beyond thier groin, and I shouldn't have to limit myself because men are limited.

Take it from a guy... you have no idea what we are like behind your backs... and I'm sure girls aren't angels, but I feel horrible for women and the image which has been given to them in society today. I've seen some guys play girls SOOOOOO bad, and they had zero idea. You women are used as eye candy at sporting events. You'll never go to a bar and see a couple guys making out on the dance floor with a bunch of girls standing around cheering... but you will most definately go to a bar and see a a couple girls making out with a bunch of guys cheering them on. Why is it Girls Gone Wild, and not Boys Gone Wild? Why does one of my best friends who happens to be a girl stress all the time over her figure and the way she looks? Why does she constantly have to feel pressured to look like what society has told you women to look like? Why is it that in the Adult Entertainment industry you'll see the same guys in every movie, but there is an endless amount of girls? Why is it that all the infomercials late at night involve women dancing around in bikinis and sometimes less begging us boys to call them? How is it fair that the girl who dresses with class and respects herself doesn't get as much attention as the girl who is out there? Does the whole concept of the beeds at Mardi Gra not make you upset? WHY? WHY? WHY? Now, I'm not saying there aren't strong, respected women out there.... but I'm dealing with the majority right now.. and what I see everyday, and used to see every night.

So you ask why is it your fault that men can't get their minds out of the gutter? I'll tell you why, Society has showed us boys these beautiful girls all of our lives and has caused us to want that... and women have learned that we want that, and the girls have fallen into the trap and work to give it to us. It makes me sick... God is protecting the both of us from this trap with the hijab.... if every girl in the world was wearing a hijab... I'd be willing to bet that the stress and depression that comes from teenage and young adult gilrs over looks and lack of attention would drop DRASTICALLY. May I ask you, are you against uniforms in school? The moral and confidence of students who didn't "fit in" went up after implamenting school uniforms. I already said this, but I'll repeat myself to get my point across... the use of Hijab helps both the man and the women. The women is looked at the way she should be looked at, and when she is being spoken to she will be taken more seriously... because the man won't be thinking dirty things. Now obviously it's not EVERY girl a guy talks to that he is thinking these kinds of things... but at one point or another he will... guys will find any quality about a girl that he would consider good enough for him to say, "I'd do her". The fact that a girl wearing a bikini with a smoking body can completely change the state of mind of a man is a scary thought. Wearing a hijab is a really good thing.

Now before you go all crazy on me for what i've just stated above. I want to make things very clear.. I don't think that EVERY non-muslim girl has fallen into the trap of what society has told them to be... I'm not saying that there aren't beautiful girls out there who aren't muslim and that they all don't dress with modesty... becasue there are a lot that do... BUT the majority... from what I've seen with my own eyes.. are like this. The things I have seen from girls when I used to go to party's and to the bars boggles my mind... and it wasn't just in London.. I used to party in Toronto, I used to party in Montreal, I used to take trips to Windsor and a whole bunch of other places.. and it was ALLLLLLL THE SAME. I completely see why God has asked the women to wear the hijab and dress with modesty, and not party the way we do in society... because in todays society women are degraded, and have no respect for themselves what so ever. It's not even just at the clubs... it's at school also. Again... there are muslim girls out there who aren't angels and who have fallen into the exact same trap.. all I'm trying to prove is that the hijab is a very, very, good thing... and it makes all the sense in the world to me.

Peace and Blessings
 

MaddLlama

Obstructor of justice
Oh, ok, I see. All women should wear modest clothing and head scarves because men won't respect them otherwise. And this is for MY protection as a woman, right.

You know, for two months out of the year, August and September, every weekend I get up, I put on two skirts, a shirt, and a corset, and spend 2 hours getting dressed and making sure I look beautiful. I spend the whole day expecting men to oggle me. And, so do about a hundred other women who are there with me. And, we enjoy it. Every second of it. Most of us are certainly not loose, and don't just bed any guy who happens to make some off color comment about how we look. And every night, I come home to a man who respects me for who I am. My sexual freedom is my own, and I think I'll dress how I please because I can tell the difference between a man who wants to get to know me, and one who just wants to touch me. Wearing a headscarf isn't going to keep men from wanting to touch me, and it doesn't mean that he'll respect me more.

Besides, do you really think such kind of objectification you speak of doesn't happen in female circles? Personally I think in this day and age it is just as likely for women to treat men like eye candy. I hear the sterotype all the time that men want a homemaker who looks like a model who is just content to clean the house and have dinner on the table when you walk in the door. In the same vein, do you know what women want? They want a Chippendale quality man worth millons.

Did you think hundreds of women flocked to the theaters to see Pirates of the Carribean for the love story?

Like I said before, it's all about knowing the difference. I don't complain about the attention that I get or don't get if I dress a certain way. To be perfectly frank, if a girl walks around in short shorts and a tube top and comes complaining to me that the men she dates only want one thing, well, I have no sympathy for her. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if she can't make the connection and tell the difference then she's probably living up to her potential. The secret is not to fall victim to the system, but using it to your advantage.
 

ayani

member
Peace4all said:
Well I must admit… Girls are better looking than guys. Your not going to make a guy look less attractive by covering his body and his hair up.

oh, i know a few straight women who might disagree with you... :D

i just don't understand why a woman's body has to be regarded as something so worthy of being guarded, where as a man does not have to cover. i can understand modest veiling for both sexes, and frankly i would find this very cool. (clothing not bring identical, of course, as Islam is for keeping the sexes dressing distinctly).

so... a man should not feel obliged to wear his clothing as a way to feel close to God or identify as religious? a woman is asked to cover her hair and her figure but a man does not have to do these things?

clearly this is a male point of view, and one which lets guys off the hook but obliges women to fulfil obligations that result from the male gaze- not from a gaze which might consider the sexes on their own terms and in fair relation to one another.
 

Snowbear

Nita Okhata
Peace4all said:
Are Muslim Women Oppressed or Most Free Women in the World?

Many people think that Muslim women are oppressed. Of course from the western point of view they see Muslim women as veiled and oppressed. In order to first understand why westerners think Muslim women are oppressed we must first look from their point of view.
  • Muslim women must wear the Hijab or head covering at all times (Main topic)
  • Muslim women must stay at home and can not work or be educated
  • Muslim women cannot go out of the house
Hijab, Burqa, no education and not being allowed out of the house?

Seems to me these are merely some of the visible symbols of the non-freedom the Islam religion allows their women. Don't the Quran and supporting documents actually state that women must be owned by men (usually a male relative)?

Where is the freedom for a woman who must have a male relative (whether as a wife, sister, daughter, concubine, whatever) to accompany her whenever she goes out? Where is the freedom for a woman whose religion does not allow her the opportunity for the same education that men are allowed? Where is the freedom for a woman whose religion allows her male 'owner' to beat her if she displeases him?

Yes Djamila, I realize there are some muslim women who have broken free and claimed independance for themselves... But I'd be willing to wager that much of the Islamic leadership labels them as sinful and disgraceful and in need of 'discipline.'
 

fullyveiled muslimah

Evil incarnate!
Actually a man in Islam does have to dress modestly. His dress is more flexible but he needs to wear a long type shirt that is loose and covers his butt. His pants should also be loose and he should be wearing a kufi on his head all the time. Men cannot wear tight or sheer clothing, or any such clothing that reveales his body. It is even more preferable if he wears clothes similar to the prophet(saw). This includes a very long shirt, his pants should be above his ankles, a kufi or turban, he must wear a beard at all times, and as stated above all clothing must be loose-fitting and not sheer at all.

Islam has a standard for both sexes to obey. Hijab is not just clothing but a state of mind also. We both are commanded to lower our gazes and we both are commanded to have very limited contact with the opposite sex who are permissable to marry, but whom we are not married to. These are commands that are not restricted to females only.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Rarely do women get to vote in Muslim societies either... and that's geerally in the most westernized of Islamic states.

In the Early 20th century, the Arab world was beginning to discuss western ideas... then WWI came, and the Ottoman Empire sided with Austria-Hungary. After being soundly defeated, the victors carved up the Middle East with either no regard for culture-groups or with a deliberate desire to divide and conquer, and installed puppet governments.

There was great unrest, though only one country managed to actually overthrow its government. That was Turkey, lead by a former officer in the Ottoman empire. When he took over, he removed that Caliphate, gave women the right to vote, changed the country to Roman writing, put in Western dress codes, and secularized the government. He strongly believed that the country needed to learn from the west to move foward.

The rest of the Arab world saw this as pandering to the bad-guys, and were likely only more enraged by the fact that it worked. In the 1920s, in Egypt, a group formed called the "Muslim Brotherhood". This can be divided into basically two sub-groups. Those who wanted to retrun to an idealized version of "the grand old days" by preaching, and those who felt that Islam was on the brink of collapse and had to be rescued by violent overthrow, the removal of all things western, and the reinstatement of religious law.

Here's where some stuff starts to really sound familiar. Citing women working as destroying the family (don't the Christians cite this over homosexuality?), and likely wanting to feel in control in a society where they had little control, the Brotherhood (mostly affluent, educated muslims) asserted that the Muslims had strayed from the true religion and therefore been abandoned by God, and that they needed a strict, anti-western, anti-woman, Islamic state to regain some imaginary golden age and protect Islam from Satan.

Wow, that sounds familiar. The Taliban is saying it. Al Quida is saying it. Much of the Muslim world is performing some form of it.

It's all about the politics. It seems that the modern Muslim support for the opression of women has many of the same causes and the Southern US support for slavery. Most whites in the souh did not have slaves, but they felt disinfranchised and out of control to the detriment of the black people in America. The Brotherhood, and their ideological descendants have done something similar with women.

Not that there isn't a basis in the Quran for women as property. It was a progressive book in it's time, but it was progressing from a Jewesh position where women are property. Islam made them somewhat less property and gave them more rights. It was a step in the right direction at the time (muh as granting protections to slaves was a step in the right direction), but is archaic by modern standards.
 

ayani

member
like on shukr.com? man, i love that site...

thank you for replying, muslimah.

may i ask how it is you describe yourself as "fully veiled" and how this relates to your understanding of Islam and the Quran?
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Actually a man in Islam does have to dress modestly. His dress is more flexible but he needs to wear a long type shirt that is loose and covers his butt.
Why is a man's dress more flexable?

Men are required to wear long shorts, women are required to cover their entire body and their hair.

This dates back to old Jewesh laws. You can see it in the writings of Paul in the NT as well (for a man's head is his glory, and a woman's head is her shame). It's the standard that causes men to generally have short hair and women long hair... and not just Islam, but the religions on which it is based cited this as an inferiorirty issue.
 

kai

ragamuffin
afghan_1.jpg


yes thats freedom for you!
 

MaddLlama

Obstructor of justice
fullyveiled muslimah said:
Actually a man in Islam does have to dress modestly. His dress is more flexible but he needs to wear a long type shirt that is loose and covers his butt. His pants should also be loose and he should be wearing a kufi on his head all the time. Men cannot wear tight or sheer clothing, or any such clothing that reveales his body. It is even more preferable if he wears clothes similar to the prophet(saw). This includes a very long shirt, his pants should be above his ankles, a kufi or turban, he must wear a beard at all times, and as stated above all clothing must be loose-fitting and not sheer at all.

Islam has a standard for both sexes to obey. Hijab is not just clothing but a state of mind also. We both are commanded to lower our gazes and we both are commanded to have very limited contact with the opposite sex who are permissable to marry, but whom we are not married to. These are commands that are not restricted to females only.

Ok, but c an you tell me where the freedom part comes in? I mean, sure they have some freedom, but can you use this argument to convince me that a Muslim woman in any country is more free than I am?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I have no problem with women wearing the hijab or whatever traditional clothings she may wear, as long as they do so, without harassment from spouse, family, community or government. The women living in more diverse cultural countries often allow for Muslim women to choose to wear different clothing of her own choosing than other countries and other communities. Some places like Saudi Arabia, however, even demands foreign non-Muslim women to wear a headscarf or move about in the streets unescorted by law. That to me is a level of coercing and oppression that I don't like to see from any religion.

I think it is the patriarchial culture and religion that seemed to like dictating on what women should or should not wear.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Actually Ezzedan, you make it all sounds like Muslims men are weak-minded and weak-willed, if you can't control yourself, if a woman is exposing their forearms, calves and ankles.

Are you telling me if you see such women in the streets that you would rape her?

Then it is you (as Muslim men in general) have a problem, not the women. No wonder why you need the women to cover up, because you (as in all Muslim men) are nothing but lechers and perverts at heart. Don't blame the women, blame yourself. If you can't walk through streets as adults then you should all wear blindfold so that you can't see any exposed flesh.

You have made me realise that it is not Muslim women who have problem is Muslim men. So that's why you oppress them because your weaknesses, and even your Qur'an can't help to control your lust.
 

Milind2469

Member
Then again, that's a rule for Muslim women within Muslim society.
When those cruel Muslim kings rules India for hundreds of years; they treated Hindu women as they could have in their best interest. They raped them, they took them away, they converted them, believe me some of them were the Muslim King's 300th or 400th wives.
Yes, but they veiled them first.
 

Milind2469

Member
Milind2469 said:
Then again, that's a rule for Muslim women within Muslim society.
When those cruel Muslim kings rules India for hundreds of years; they treated Hindu women as they could have in their best interest. They raped them, they took them away, they converted them, believe me some of them were the Muslim King's 300th or 400th wives.
Yes, but they veiled them first.
So they were true Muslims , right?
 

Milind2469

Member
Ours is a free country. Different religions exist with harmony.
Many muslims here have hindu girl friends and are indulged in all sorts of 'activities' with them.
but their own family's women are protected (veiled) and paid due respect by these muslims. So they are following striptures

As i am writing this, i am getting more and more confused, I decide to give up...
 

Sahar

Well-Known Member
Hi there,
Iam a muslim girl and i wear hijab alhamdulillah.
While reading this topic, i felt that men are the ones who told muslim women to wear hijab not God!
When God tell me 2 do something i do it without asking "why?"
Muslim woman wears hijab b/c God told her 2 do so, not b/c any man on this earth asked her to do that and she wears it by her own will.
and i dont know what the relation between oppression and hijab is!!
why is hijab a big deal?!!

I am very proud for being muslim n when i walk in the street or go to my college i want every1 to know that iam a muslim modest girl so i wear hijab, it's my symbol.
btw i can also be beautiful and fashionable while wearing my hijab as long as my clothes are loose and cover my whole body except my face n hands.

that a Muslim woman in any country is more free than I am?
So u judge a pesron whether he is free or not by his look, by his clothes!!!
Iam free b/c i do wat i want and i want to wear hijab so iam free!
back to ur Q; YES, there are many muslim women who are more free than many western women and i am not going to say "than YOU".
 

MaddLlama

Obstructor of justice
not4me said:
So u judge a pesron whether he is free or not by his look, by his clothes!!!
Iam free b/c i do wat i want and i want to wear hijab so iam free!
back to ur Q; YES, there are many muslim women who are more free than many western women and i am not going to say "than YOU".

The argument that's being made is precisely that - a muslim womans "choice" to wear modest dress and headcoverings give her more freedoms. I disagree, and I have yet to see any evidence to convince me otherwise.
 
Top