Are Muslim Women Oppressed, or Most Free Women in the World?

[Peace4all]

Duly noted, Booko! I'm off duty permanently...

You dont have to be off duty!
Since your soo good mabey you can proof read my lit papers. I had to make up a myth about how the world was created and i got a 4/4 on creativity and everything else... but i got a 1/4 on my spelling. Go figure!

 

[Peace4all]

I would love to know what you disagree with! I mean this is why it’s the Religious Debates section. Mom says I have to put all my energy somewhere so I just hang around here and use my energy to furiously type on my keyboard.

 

[ayani]

Peace- i feel that Islam, like all religions, can be practiced in a way that offers opportunities and freedoms to all believers. there are also alot of traditions, Quranic verses, and Hadiths which can easily be used to do the opposite- to impose restrictions and curtail freedom.

for example- something i've never understood the need for is the Niqaab. i remember asking in this forum (i think) where in the Quran or Hadith it was suggested that a woman should cover up her face, and what the need for this was. what about women being distracted by immodest men? should this not warrent more modesty from men, as opposed to (as seems to be a far more common practice) the chastizing of women?

of course, most (if not all) traditions have these snags with regards to the treatment / freedoms of women believers compared to those of men... it's not an easy call, and i respect your gall in answering questions on this issue.

 

[Booko]

English is my first language but im a reckless 14 year old who makes an 85 in Lit. (my lowest grade) i just dont bother to read over my posts...

Haha, my son got the same grads in Lit for years, but that's because he doesn't care about what they're teaching in school. When he's interested in a subject, he writes about it well enough.

Hm, you wouldn't happen to live in the Atlanta area, would you? There are really quite a few of us here on RF.

Don't worry, no one here will ask for your address.

 

[Booko]

You dont have to be off duty!
Since your soo good mabey you can proof read my lit papers. I had to make up a myth about how the world was created and i got a 4/4 on creativity and everything else... but i got a 1/4 on my spelling. Go figure!

You would always try the spell checker? It's not that good, but it's better than nothing.

 

[gnostic]

Ok.

Muslim women cover themselves out of the sake for decency and because the Qur'an demand women to be decency, peace4all.

Here is a real life scenario for you.

In Melbourne, there is a Muslim girl who want to become a model. She joined the beauty contest, where she can wear bikini or bather. Her parents have no problem with it.

Only the Muslim leaders are outraged at her participation. They are making demand from the girl, not to participate, and asking pagaent to ban her.

Perhaps, it is indecent to your view, but isn't it her decision on how she should dress? Should Muslim men dictate how a woman or girl should dress? Are Muslim women given free choice to go out in a bikini or not?

To me, it seem some Muslims (especially men) are being restrictive and oppressive, when and how they tell should dress, when it should be the decision of each individual woman.

 

[JerryL]

The obvious question is begged, can we seperate what we can argue he rulebook says from the net effect... and, of course, can we get a realistic view of the net effect?

I can say that Muslim dominated countries are far from the most liberal in giving equality to women. Perhaps that is related to Islam, perhaps not, but the pattern is there.

Poor countries are also generally bad at granting liberty to women, though often though methods other than the force of law (the simple failure to protect them in Africa for example).

The greatest acceptance of equality of women shows up in the most secular of countries (Western Europe) where they have, among other things, held leadership positions for generations, and where the rules don't include gender.

 

[Peace4all]

Peace- i feel that Islam, like all religions, can be practiced in a way that offers opportunities and freedoms to all believers. there are also alot of traditions, Quranic verses, and Hadiths which can easily be used to do the opposite- to impose restrictions and curtail freedom.

If i have learned anything from religious forums at all is that you cannot copy and paste from any text, sacred or not, unless reading about the whole subject. Same thing goes with the quran.

for example- something i've never understood the need for is the Niqaab. i remember asking in this forum (i think) where in the Quran or Hadith it was suggested that a woman should cover up her face, and what the need for this was.

The Quran Specificly describes what parts does a woman have to cover up, and the quran says nothing about covering up the face.I have a hypothesis that in the desert there was always alot of sand blowing so even men covered there face at times so women just put the niqab as a permanent thing. It could be also that women want to appear stronger in faith so they practice extra things... i have no idea

what about women being distracted by immodest men? should this not warrent more modesty from men, as opposed to (as seems to be a far more common practice) the chastizing of women?

Well, as i stated before, when a woman wears the Hijab it's a symbol that she has strong faith. After all, wearing the Hijab is not an easy test at all. So when you see a women wearing Hijab your less likely to hit on her because you know that she takes religion seriously. Plus you know that she is not very likely to fall for you. Sometimes people ask me why don’t men wear the Hijab. Well I must admit… Girls are better looking than guys. Your not going to make a guy look less attractive by covering his body and his hair up.

 

[Peace4all]

Ok.

Muslim women cover themselves out of the sake for decency and because the Qur'an demand women to be decency, peace4all.

Here is a real life scenario for you.

In Melbourne, there is a Muslim girl who want to become a model. She joined the beauty contest, where she can wear bikini or bather. Her parents have no problem with it.

Only the Muslim leaders are outraged at her participation. They are making demand from the girl, not to participate, and asking pagaent to ban her.

Perhaps, it is indecent to your view, but isn't it her decision on how she should dress? Should Muslim men dictate how a woman or girl should dress? Are Muslim women given free choice to go out in a bikini or not?

To me, it seem some Muslims (especially men) are being restrictive and oppressive, when and how they tell should dress, when it should be the decision of each individual woman.

I absolutly agree with you that men should not be able to force woman to wear the Hijab. Of course there is nothing wrong with a little encouragement but FORCING her to wear the hijab is wrong. I beleive that mabey, one day, when men are all perfect and they dont have have any flaws they can come back and force a woman to wear the hijab.

 

[Peace4all]

Poor countries are also generally bad at granting liberty to women, though often though methods other than the force of law (the simple failure to protect them in Africa for example).

I have a hypothosis that in third world countries, muslim or not, women dont have rights because they cant hold any jobs, considering that all the jobs are physical. with the exception of Saudi Arabia, i am sure that when muslim countries become more civilized, such as Syria, muslim women will start to get more jobs and , therefore, be more independent

The greatest acceptance of equality of women shows up in the most secular of countries (Western Europe) where they have, among other things, held leadership positions for generations, and where the rules don't include gender.

When did western Europe start to relize the equality of women? Only when woman started getting jobs and more oppurtunities.

 

[Ezzedean]

You obviously have never met a Muslim woman not from Saudi Arabia or Taliban Afghanistan.

This wasn't the point of view of peace4all.... peace4all was just showing the basic view and misunderstanding of people outside of Islam...

Peace and Blessings

 

[Random]

I absolutly agree with you that men should not be able to force woman to wear the Hijab. Of course there is nothing wrong with a little encouragement but FORCING her to wear the hijab is wrong. I beleive that mabey, one day, when men are all perfect and they dont have have any flaws they can come back and force a woman to wear the hijab.

I know you're only a kid, Peace4all, and new to the forum but that kind of reasoning is gonna get you murdered by some excessively rational Atheist on here.

So men should (can) not force the Muslim woman to wear the Hijab because, what, they are flawed and imperfect?! BUT, you say, when men are perfect and flawless, it'll be okay to force her to wear it?!

I gonna assume you're smarter than the impression you're creating and take it you mean the judgement of men who decide these things and make these rules is flawed by their imperfect nature, thus, men cannot make the correct call on the Hijab wearing for women. Is that it?

If it is...well, I'm afraid you're missing the point really. The point which has been repeatedly made is that it's not for men to decide at all what women wear, perfect or imperfect. The woman should have the last say on how she appears and presents herself based on her personally experienced view of her reality.

If she chooses to honour the traditions of Islam, well and good for her and Islam, but it should not be compulsory, rather a matter of choice.

Oh, and "Mabey" is properly "maybe", but don't tell Booko I said that...:run:

 

[Peace4all]

on here.
So men should (can) not force the Muslim woman to wear the Hijab because, what, they are flawed and imperfect?! BUT, you say, when men are perfect and flawless, it'll be okay to force her to wear it?!

Thats a Figure of speech...YOUR KILLING ME YA KNOW THAT??? what i am trying to say is that we have alot of problems in the world to correct ourselves. Its not fair for a man to force a woman about not wearing a hijab when there are even bigger flaws inside himself.

If it is...well, I'm afraid you're missing the point really. The point which has been repeatedly made is that it's not for men to decide at all what women wear, perfect or imperfect. The woman should have the last say on how she appears and presents herself based on her personally experienced view of her reality.

Yes thats what im trying to say.
Islam is big on the intensions of the person. For example: if i donate 1 million dollars to the poor just so people can praise me then i get no good deeds, in fact, you get sins. Even if a man DOES force a woman to wear the Hijab a woman would not get good deeds for it. I am also saying that there is nothing wrong with a little encouragement. I mean you can tell a sister nicely that i really care for you and that you should wear the hijab but under no means you can force a woman to wear the hijab. Did i make myself clear?

If she chooses to honour the traditions of Islam, well and good for her and Islam, but it should not be compulsory, rather a matter of choice.

Wearing the Hijab is a must in Islam but that's between her and god.

Oh, and "Mabey" is properly "maybe", but don't tell Booko I said that...:run:

I'VE HAD IT. You know what? Believe it or not, your not Mr. Spelling Perfet either.

JUST FYI

judgement

Is properly "Judgment" without the E

OOOOO what now? BOO YAAA :woohoo:
WHOS MR SPELLING NOW HUH?

IM just kiddin with ya

 

[Peace4all]

This wasn't the point of view of peace4all.... peace4all was just showing the basic view and misunderstanding of people outside of Islam...

Peace and Blessings

Thanks, with all due respect sometimes i wish people would read the whole thing rather than just asssume stuff.

Salam

 

[MaddLlama]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Hijab worn by women because men are too weak not to give into thier sexual urges because of a bare wrist or ankle? If men were perfect, and this was not an issue, then women would not need to wear the Hijab.
And, also I'm not quite sure I understand this reasoning: for any Muslim woman not to wear it is a sin, but nobody can force her to wear it. However, since it's a sin, choosing not to wear it will meet with punishment. Wouldn't it then be in the best interest of the woman to force her to wear it to save her from the wrath of god?

 

[JerryL]

Just pointing out for the record, so I can refernce this the next time someone tells me that it's only sensational media that points at false-Muslim extremists that believe women should be required to wear a Hijab, that educated, sincere Muslims exposed to western ideas, even ones here on RF, believe that not wearing it si a sin.

 

[Hacker]

One thing I do agree with regarding the Muslim religion is the Hijabs BELIEVE it or not! I believe in one of the important aspects of it is protecting the women from other men looking at her sexually and that her body without being exposed (like some of the way women dress in America) is in a way, a postive thing...in other words, in my opinion, it's a way of proving to one's husband that she is only loyal for him, and nobody else, which I admire and respect. I can also understand the argument against women's freedom to dress as she pleases but again, I think the hijab has some validity to it, and some logic. Because SOME, men(married) DO lust at other women and some women give them a reason too, and lust is one of the deadliest sins in my opinon.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Hijab worn by women because men are too weak not to give into thier sexual urges

I do agree with this statement, but I think lust is such a strong sometimes uncontrollable emotion amoung men, and many of them can give a hoot about what their religon denotes.
The only thing that I disagree on is the versue where some believe that it's permitted(according to Allah) to hit one's wife if she misbehaves. I do know that some people claim that there was a misconception about the way this versue is interpreted, but not everyone views it that way unfortunately, and the one's that views it otherwise, may peace be upon them.

 

[MaddLlama]

Just pointing out for the record, so I can refernce this the next time someone tells me that it's only sensational media that points at false-Muslim extremists that believe women should be required to wear a Hijab, that educated, sincere Muslims exposed to western ideas, even ones here on RF, believe that not wearing it si a sin.

I might be totally misreading your post, and I apologise if I am, but a Hijab is not the same as a burqa.

 

[JerryL]

I can also understand the argument against women's freedom to dress as she pleases but again, I think the hijab has some validity to it, and some logic. Because SOME, men(married) DO lust at other women and some women give them a reason too, and lust is one of the deadliest sins in my opinon.

1) You seem to be saying "it's good to opress someone if someone else behaves badly".
2) I don't see you suggesting that men should wear it to show that they are only for their wife. Why not?
3) As a UU, where's your moral issue against open relationships?
4) What about unmarried women?

 

[Ezzedean]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Hijab worn by women because men are too weak not to give into thier sexual urges because of a bare wrist or ankle? If men were perfect, and this was not an issue, then women would not need to wear the Hijab.
And, also I'm not quite sure I understand this reasoning: for any Muslim woman not to wear it is a sin, but nobody can force her to wear it. However, since it's a sin, choosing not to wear it will meet with punishment. Wouldn't it then be in the best interest of the woman to force her to wear it to save her from the wrath of god?

Women aren't forced to wear the hijab... if a muslim women doesn't wear the hijab it's not gonna lead to punishment. I dont know what it is women dislike about the hijab, and the fact that God protects them from the eyes and minds of men. God also tells men to lower their gaze, so should mens response to that be "Why is it our fault that women are so beautiful and wear such revealing clothes? Why should we be punished for it?" Take it from a guy, and take it from a guy who knows a lot of other guys. Men treat women like meat... yes eventually we find the women we love and marry them, but even then... the conversations men have about women is disgusting. An attractive women, wearing revealing clothes, tight jeans and sporting beautiful flowing hair will always get the comment of "Man... the things I'd do to that girl", and every guy is looking at that girl and thinking about the things they would like to do to her... I dont want men looking at my daughter like that... I want men to respect my daughter, and to speak to her for her mind and not because of her womenly gifts. God is doing women a favor by giving them the idea of a hijab, whether you believe it or not. Women deserve to be looked at and spoken to for reasons other than their looks... women need to be treated with the greatest of respect... and I have yet to see a women wearing a hijab looked at with such disrespect.

How would you feel if your daughter came up to you with crazy tight jeans, and a revealing shirt then says "See ya mom, going to the mall."? I know I would feel uncomfortable... now before I end this post I want everyone to know that I'm not saying any non-muslim girl is a girl who wears revealing clothes, and tons of make up... but I do know that the girls who dont wear those kinds of clothes who are non-muslim have a tendancy to feel jealousy, and envy of the girls who do, because of all the attention they get from the boys... and again the girls who are wearing the hijab could care less about that crap, and dont stress about these pointless things. Don't tell me it's not common in our society for girls who are not so attracitve, or don't have the means to dress like the sexy girls do to go home crying and many times become depressed. I wont ask my daughter to wear it, I wont force her to wear it... but I wil be damn happy if she decides to wear a hijab.

Peace and Blessings