Are Muslim Women Oppressed, or Most Free Women in the World?

[Peace4all]

Hi there,
Iam a muslim girl and i wear hijab alhamdulillah.
While reading this topic, i felt that men are the ones who told muslim women to wear hijab not God!
When God tell me 2 do something i do it without asking "why?"
Muslim woman wears hijab b/c God told her 2 do so, not b/c any man on this earth asked her to do that and she wears it by her own will.
and i dont know what the relation between oppression and hijab is!!
why is hijab a big deal?!!

I am very proud for being muslim n when i walk in the street or go to my college i want every1 to know that iam a muslim modest girl so i wear hijab, it's my symbol.
btw i can also be beautiful and fashionable while wearing my hijab as long as my clothes are loose and cover my whole body except my face n hands.

So u judge a pesron whether he is free or not by his look, by his clothes!!!
Iam free b/c i do wat i want and i want to wear hijab so iam free!
back to ur Q; YES, there are many muslim women who are more free than many western women and i am not going to say "than YOU".

Walikumu Salam Sister
I am not trying to question Allah's authority of why did he install such rules in Islam, nor I’m I trying to make it seem that the idea of the Hijab is wrong. I’m just trying to prove that Allah SWT is wise and trying to prove that god installed these rules for our protection rather than just to torture us. Masha’ Allah I admire your faith in the commands of Allah. If everyone had your faith Muslims would be in a much better position.

i dont know what the relation between oppression and hijab is!!why is hijab a big deal?!!

I don’t know either.

Salam


​

 

[MaddLlama]

I mean, what if her Hijab is a 6x, would he still marry her, or if she has a huge mole right on her nose? would he approach her?

Hijab technically means "to dress modestly" but the common usage is in reference to a head scarf. Do those come in plus sizes? 0.o Or are you referring to the full body coverings?

 

[MaddLlama]

I wouldn't say it was completely un-necessary to read the rest of my post .... I was telling you about myself and my experience with that post, and sharing with you the reasons why I view things the way I do. I have misunderstood your point (but not me more) but you can still read that post because it still has a lot to do with what my point is. Now... as to a muslim women who is asked to wear a scarf being free... in some sense yes, and in some sense no.

I didn't mean it that way, I'm sorry if that came off really harsh. I did actually read the whole post, what I should have said was what I replied to was really the only thing relevent to the argument I was making. :sorry1:

Some people may consider the fact that they can wear mini skirts, and they can wear revealing clothes, and they can seduce whoever they want and act however they want as free... but a lot many of those people find themselves regretting a lot of things.. I honestly find a girl wearing a nice shirt or t-shirt (which fits) and jeans or a nice pair of pants much more attractive than a girl who is wearing a mini skirt and a belly shirt with tons of clevage.. girls are beautiful, but when they wear those kinds of things... they aren't beautiful anymore.. they are sexy/sex figures to men.

I think part of the problem here is that I'm not articulating what my argument is real well - ever have one of those moments where you know what you want to say, but it just doesn't come out right? I'm glad you pointed this out though, because now I know where I went wrong. =)
I certainly am not advocating for skimpy clothing. I find myself disgusted quite often when I walk through the mall and see fourteen year olds walking around in shorts so short I can see thier butt crack that has the word "juicy" on the back. Sexual freedom and confidence of self image isn't about who can show the most skin, or using your clothing to scream out "Hey boys! Stare at my cleavage!" To me, that just shows that they are insecure about thier bodies - the media image of unattainable perfection. I can be confident in myself and my body without showing copous amounts of skin. Matter of fact I barely ever wear anything but jeans and boots even in the summer (reasons for which are also matters of my own insecurity). But my point is that I don't have to show skin to be beautiful and respectable. I think we are essentially on the same wavelength, I just don't know that a headcovering makes a huge difference.

I also think that this might be a semantic issue, and we could be arguing over nothing. Just to clarify, are we talking about dressing modestly (like, not going out in public looking like yu're in your underwear), or wearing a headscarf? Because modest dress I certainly agree with (to a reasonable extent), but the idea that I am specifically objecting to is that wearing a covering over your hair makes you more respectable as a woman.

I am also realizing that I probably should have asked this in the first place. Can I blame it on the flu? :yes:

 

[Peace4all]

Just to clairify whats your idea of a modest dress for a woman Maddllama?

 

[kai]

everyone has different dress sense, every culture has a different dress sense,most age groups have a different dress sense , it should be up to the individual not legislation or religious thought , although if it says so in the qu'ran then muslims dont really have a choose do they. as for secular countries your free to wear what you wish within reason of course, the alternative is to be like china a few years back when everyone had to dress the same

 

[ayani]

i'd like to raise this point again:

the issue i have with hijab is not the ideal of modesty or covering. the problem i have with hijab is how strictly it is enforced on women, yet many muslim men don't seen to feel the need to dress modestly or similarly cover themselves in public. why?

should not a muslim man also show his piety and modesty by covering, out of respect for himself and for God, as (ideally) a muslim woman would? or is the true purpose of hijab not to have an outword sign of obidience to Allah, but rather to keep impure thoughts in check? if the purpose is to keep sexual lust to a minimum, why not veil men to help keep women's lust in check as well? do you seriosuly not think that a woman can be tempted or given impure thoughts seeing a handsome man walking around in a t-shirt and tight jeans?

in other religious commities i've seen, everyone wears "hijab" to an extent. all the men cover, dress modestly, wear a hat, and do these things for the love of God and tradition. women do the same, dress modestly, cover their heads, avoid jewelery, for the love of God and tradition. but when you get a society that only obliges women to wear hijab, how is this a divine law that takes every person of the religious community into account? how is that religious equality and fairness and not gender apartheid?

 

[shema]

The bible also says that women should always keep their heads covered. and that's why many penecostal christians wear head scarves, however it also says that a woman's husband is her head covering, and a mans head covering is Jesus christ, and christ head covering is the father

 

[kai]

i'd like to raise this point again:

the issue i have with hijab is not the ideal of modesty or covering. the problem i have with hijab is how strictly it is enforced on women, yet many muslim men don't seen to feel the need to dress modestly or similarly cover themselves in public. why?

should not a muslim man also show his piety and modesty by covering, out of respect for himself and for God, as (ideally) a muslim woman would? or is the true purpose of hijab not to have an outword sign of obidience to Allah, but rather to keep impure thoughts in check? if the purpose is to keep sexual lust to a minimum, why not veil men to help keep women's lust in check as well? do you seriosuly not think that a woman can be tempted or given impure thoughts seeing a handsome man walking around in a t-shirt and tight jeans?

in other religious commities i've seen, everyone wears "hijab" to an extent. all the men cover, dress modestly, wear a hat, and do these things for the love of God and tradition. women do the same, dress modestly, cover their heads, avoid jewelery, for the love of God and tradition. but when you get a society that only obliges women to wear hijab, how is this a divine law that takes every person of the religious community into account? how is that religious equality and fairness and not gender apartheid?

(Surah al-Ahzaab,ayat 59):
"O prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (jalabib) all over their bodies (screen themselves completely except one or both eyes to see the way - tafsirul Qurtabi) that is most convenient that they should be known as such and not molested: and Allah is oft-forgiving most merciful.

the problem is getting muslims to agree whether the qu'ran says veil or the above, i think talk of a veil is skirting the point its more than a veil that is proscribed

 

[Milind2469]

I see some programs on Nat Geo about aboriginal communities in Africa, America etc where the men and women are/were almost or completely naked.
By the logic of God; the men there must always be engaged in rapes. They MUST be a threat to all those women. They must always be regarding those women in bad sense.
(more so because they were not converted and not were not aware of God and his powers)
Those channels don't cover that angle, do they?

 

[shema]

I see some programs on Nat Geo about aboriginal communities in Africa, America etc where the men and women are/were almost or completelt naked.
By the logic of God; the men there must always be engaged in rapes.quote]

that is an assumption on the other side they may just marry and procreate, and value family very much. I don't know for sure either but that could cause an opinion to be formed in a biased way.

 

[ayani]

the problem is getting muslims to agree whether the qu'ran says veil or the above, i think talk of a veil is skirting the point its more than a veil that is proscribed

right. but again i would be able to respect the tradition of veiling if it was a community endevour. it's not.

heck, if hijab were to include niqaab, that would be ok with me, so long as both men and women wore it as a sign of obedience to God's will and out of respect for themselves and their faith. why would it be bad if both sexes did this? tons of other religious communities do this, have strict hijab for both sexes.

why does Islam make the exception in favor of only women being veiled? how is that a unifying religious commandment?

 

[Milind2469]

Isn't it the mind where sin takes place and not in other's clothes?
And sinful mind is our own responsibility and the other's?

Don't doctors give their patient a pill to cure the decease or do they kill the person who infected his patient? Even if the real origin of desease is the other person, the other person's death doesn't cure his patient. Prayers to purify the the other person also does not cure the patient. No good or bad ways in that regard really work.

What works is a pill to the patient. A focussed, perfect , exactly measured pill directed to cure a specific desease.

 

[!Fluffy!]

Are Muslim Women Oppressed or Most Free Women in the World?​

Many people think that Muslim women are oppressed. Of course from the western point of view they see Muslim women as veiled and oppressed. In order to first understand why westerners think Muslim women are oppressed we must first look from their point of view.​

• Muslim women must wear the Hijab or head covering at all times (Main topic)
• Muslim women must stay at home and can not work or be educated
• Muslim women cannot go out of the house

Not surprisingly, the main reason people think that Muslim women is oppressed is because of the head veiling. Before I go any further I would like to define what exactly is the defined definition of the veiling of the women. A woman should cover from her feet all the way up. The arms should cover all the way until the wrist and the face can show but the hairline should not, only her face should show. ​

It's a common misconception that the Hijab is the symbol of the defined boundaries of a Muslim women's life. People think of the Hijab as a symbol of owner ship and limited freedom of the women however the Hijab is not a sign of oppression, but perhaps, the protection of the Muslim women. ​

In order to fully understand this concept we must shift to observe the question of," what is the definition of 'free' for westerners?" Because I live in an American society I can generally tell you that, this is not always the case, a women is pretty much judged by how fine her @ss is. A man's respect for women is more because of their physical beauty rather than characteristics. Think about it, why does the USA have one of the highest divorce rate in the world?**​

With that said lets take a look of how women are judged in Islam. With the veiling of the women much of her beauty is covered. To limit man from judging women by their body's the Hijab is put as a barrier. This way woman would be judged by their characteristics rather than beauty. ​

When a woman wears the Hijab it’s not a sign of oppression but it’s a sign of freedom that no non Muslim women will ever have. I know American girls that spend eons on their personal looks… Why? The sad truth is that the majority of the times if men do judge women by their looks.* ​

Of course sometimes in Muslim countries you will find men very much like in western countries*. When a Muslim woman puts on the Hijab its like, “Back of playa go mess with someone else”; it gives the yield sign for those kinds of guys not to mess with her. As I have seen one Muslim brother say a while back:​

*

I must admit it makes me damn proud too. I’m not saying that this happens to every non-Muslim girl but the Hijab significantly cuts the chances of that happening. This is a freedom that not many non Muslim women have.​

* VERY IMPORTANT TO READ
When I refer to the term “westerners” I don’t mean every single one. I have met many great American people in my life and I have many non Muslim friends. I have also seen swell relationships between husbands and wives in the US. I am just saying that this does happen frequently and there are different extremes of the term “westeners”. ​

** Divorce rate in the US
Well at first I wrote the US has the highest but then I did research and I found out that I was mistaken; there are countries that are higher. The US divorce rate is around 49% .The Divorce rate of Syria is about .65%. I chose “Syria” in specific because Syria is a very modern Muslim country and there is a large work force of women. ​

I will respond to number 2 and 3 in time if god wills​

Gotta run:run:
Salam​

First of all as to the original premise of the thread:
Are Muslim Women Oppressed, or Most Free Women in the World?

"In many Muslim countries women have fewer rights than men with regard to marriage, divorce, civil rights, legal status, dress code, professional lives and education."

If I can get any muslim to agree to the validity of this statement I will be shocked out of my mind. Yet it is an historical, observable and easily verifiable fact. Nothing to get defensive about either, really. Sadly, tragically it just happens to be true.

Whether the subject is idribûhunna, honor killings, or hijab:
the fact is women and young girls have suffered horribly under sharia law. We should of course observe the inroads of feminism in the muslim community. It's just a fact though that too many women and girls are still oppressed BECAUSE OF sharia law.

It's my humble observation that perhaps the Muslims on board here should be the ones to address the issue before I do. I am sorry, but I think before you launch into poetic tributes to the beauty of Islamic law in its treatment of women, it may be more credible to address and acknowledge the horrible abuses.

In other words, I think we can all acknowledge the beauty of the ideal within this religion, without totally ignoring those who are in no position to enjoy that ideal -- because it is forcibly withheld from them in the name of that same religion.

If Islam is a religion which honors the truth, that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[AbuQuteiba]

First of all as to the original premise of the thread:
Are Muslim Women Oppressed, or Most Free Women in the World?

"In many Muslim countries women have fewer rights than men with regard to marriage, divorce, civil rights, legal status, dress code, professional lives and education."

If I can get any muslim to agree to the validity of this statement I will be shocked out of my mind. Yet it is an historical, observable and easily verifiable fact. Nothing to get defensive about either, really. Sadly, tragically it just happens to be true.

Whether the subject is idribûhunna, honor killings, or hijab:
the fact is women and young girls have suffered horribly under sharia law. We should of course observe the inroads of feminism in the muslim community. It's just a fact though that too many women and girls are still oppressed BECAUSE OF sharia law.

It's my humble observation that perhaps the Muslims on board here should be the ones to address the issue before I do. I am sorry, but I think before you launch into poetic tributes to the beauty of Islamic law in its treatment of women, it may be more credible to address and acknowledge the horrible abuses.

In other words, I think we can all acknowledge the beauty of the ideal within this religion, without totally ignoring those who are in no position to enjoy that ideal -- because it is forcibly withheld from them in the name of that same religion.

If Islam is a religion which honors the truth, that shouldn't be a problem.

I agree. So called "muslim" countries do abuse womens rights. Its mostly the Arab countries (which is where i'm from btw) that use this abuse. Its because of the old arab traditions during jahiliya (time of ignorance). Unforunately, it's still exists today, and effects many muslim socities. Like any other haman-made disease (rascism, etc..) I hope we can one day get rid of this one someday.

(Why do christian nuns wear the hijab?)

 

[ayani]

(Why do christian nuns wear the hijab?)

basically it's part of their "habit", or religious dress that sets them apart from non-monastic women. monks have historically wore special clothing for the same reason, to remind them of their vows and to seperate them from tehr est of the world.

but again, entering a monastic community and agreeing to wear the habit is a choice, and monks must do the same.

 

[!Fluffy!]

Thanks champion and frubals to you for proving me wrong . You are awesome.

I really like your straightforward posts and look for them whenever I come on rf. You have given me some valuable insights into your religion and culture and I appreciate it greatly.

-- mw

 

[Ezzedean]

I didn't mean it that way, I'm sorry if that came off really harsh. I did actually read the whole post, what I should have said was what I replied to was really the only thing relevent to the argument I was making. :sorry1:

I see what you're saying... it's allllll good.

I certainly am not advocating for skimpy clothing. I find myself disgusted quite often when I walk through the mall and see fourteen year olds walking around in shorts so short I can see thier butt crack that has the word "juicy" on the back. Sexual freedom and confidence of self image isn't about who can show the most skin, or using your clothing to scream out "Hey boys! Stare at my cleavage!" To me, that just shows that they are insecure about thier bodies - the media image of unattainable perfection.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

I can be confident in myself and my body without showing copous amounts of skin. Matter of fact I barely ever wear anything but jeans and boots even in the summer (reasons for which are also matters of my own insecurity). But my point is that I don't have to show skin to be beautiful and respectable. I think we are essentially on the same wavelength, I just don't know that a headcovering makes a huge difference.

We def are on the same wavelength here... with a very small exception. Now, I can't go and say that a women who covers her hair is automatically more beautiful, respectable and free as a women who doesn't.. that would just be ignorant and foolish. I am in a situation right now which you were in before. I know what I want to say but I just don't know how to say it.

I feel that a women wearing a hijab is a very strong women. Psychologically when I am with a girl who is wearig a hijab I tend to be more cautious with my actions.. now I will most definately be myself and express my point of views with her, but how I do it would be slightly different than the way I would do it with a girl not wearing a hijab.

If I am speaking to a non-muslim girl or a girl who isn't wearing a hijab (who isn't any less of a muslim) I would still show the same respect I would to a scarf wearing girl, but at the same time I would maybe test the waters but I would always leave the ball in the muslim girls (hijab) court. Don't go thinking that I wouldn't joke around and show her the kind of person I am, or have fun with her, I would but in a different manner. If I wanted to pursue a relationship with a hijab wearing girl... I would ask her parents for permission, and I would respect her body and modesty by not making moves on her, touching her or anthing else we shouldn't be doing Islamically.

With a non-muslim girl we would probobly go out on dates, and go to movies, she would maybe wanna go to the clubs with me, and then we would maybe have that first kiss. After the first kiss, it's the first everything else (please know that I'm dealing with majority, and common things within society). It has become the norm for teens and young adults to date, and they date a lot. It has become the norm for us to get to know eachother, and during that process sexual intercourse takes place a lot of the time. With agirl wearing a hijab the last thing that would come up is sex.. and that I respect and like. The hijab wearing girl will get that respect and also will help me be the persone I'm supposed to be. Now it's not that I would just jump all over a girl who isn't muslim and be all sinful with her... but the opprotunity would knock on the door, and with the hijab wearing girl it wont. Now some guys may see that as a bad thing, but that fact alone is a problem in itself.

Again... I need to explain myself... if I'm talking with a non-muslim girl it's not like all I'm doing is thinking about sexual intercourse... but the fact is that the topic may come up or the situation may arise... and with a hijab wearing girl I know the situation wont come up, and the topic wont come up until marriage... and that is very respectful.

I know that non-muslim girls practice abstinence... but again I am dealing with the majority... after the age of 19 and sometimes younger in Western Society it is considered weird to still be a virgin. This is all very hard to explain. I guess all I can say is that I respect and admire a girl who decides to wear a hijab, and who has that kind of respect for herself and for the person who she will be with. I also have respect for a girl who doesn't wear a scarf and is a non-muslim... you've read in a previous post of mine that I am practically dating a non muslim and I love her very much, I protect her to the best of my abilities, and I try my hardest to make her happy and help her achieve everything she wants to achieve but we didn't officially start seeing eachother until she stopped doing a lot of things she used to be involved with.A hijab wearing girl lives that way always, and let's everyone know she does on a daily basis. Now... please know that I didn't force Caramie to do anything (girl I'm seeing), she came to me after she made all the changes, and she made all the changes after her bad experiences.

So is a women who wears a scarf more respected than a women who doesn't? In the end... it all depends on the girl I guess. There can be a girl who doesn't wear a scarf who is not a muslim and is a 100 times better than a scarf wearing muslim girl... but a girl who does wear a scarf is surely admirable, and I do have plenty of respect for what they do... but if after I get to know them and her personality and aura is nothing like it should be... the hijab won't maintain that respect. Man... I honestly am having a very hard time explaining this whole situation, so I'm just gonna stop. I just like a girl who is good to herself, faithful, good to me and doesn't dress to impress all the boys, sense of humor and intelligence def makes the list too. In the end I'm not gonna choose a hijab wearing girl over a non hijab wearing girl just because she has a hijab on... BUT I understand the purpose of the hijab and I agree with it 100%.

Just to clarify, are we talking about dressing modestly (like, not going out in public looking like yu're in your underwear), or wearing a headscarf?Because modest dress I certainly agree with (to a reasonable extent), but the idea that I am specifically objecting to is that wearing a covering over your hair makes you more respectable as a woman.

I am also realizing that I probably should have asked this in the first place. Can I blame it on the flu? :yes:

I too have made things difficult, and I have brought up things which are un-necessary for this discussion,, and I apologize for that. I was talking with you and gnostic and I was bringing over parts of the conversation with gnostic and bringing it here. Again, I put this together before practice and didn't edit, so I apologize for whatever errors there might be.

Peace llama

Ezz

 

[MaddLlama]

I think I understand what you're trying to say - if you meet a woman who is wearing a hijab then you know that she is not interested in sex. I think that's a fair assesment, after all the hijab really is a physical indication of certain religious preferences and values. And being willing to wear those values commands more respect. I wouldn't disagree with that.

 

[Ezzedean]

I think I understand what you're trying to say - if you meet a woman who is wearing a hijab then you know that she is not interested in sex. I think that's a fair assesment, after all the hijab really is a physical indication of certain religious preferences and values. And being willing to wear those values commands more respect. I wouldn't disagree with that.

Yeah that is a good explanation of what I'm trying to say... but there is also more to it than just the sex... but I think you've got the picture of what I'm trying to say. So I'll end this discussion with this. You Madllama do not wear a hijab, nor are you a muslim. You have respect for yourself and will choose the right time and place to work at looking your best for a night to show your beauty... you also seem to have control of who get's somewhere with you, and can easily throw the guys with a one track mind to the curb. You feel a scarf isn't necessary to gaining respect or freedom, but yet you practice modesty almost on a daily basis. Although your ways aren't muslim.. I have the utmost respect for you, and now hold you in high regards... If you're intelligence is a sign of your beauty.. I'm only left to assume that you're breathtaking... Although we were a little lost in our discussion it seems as if we've found the place we're looking for. Hope to talk to you more...but I also hope it's a different topic lol. Trying to say what I wanted to say without it seeming like I was saying something I wasn't was hard, almost as hard as it was to type that damn sentence.

Take Care Madllama
and
Peace n Blessings to you

Ezzedean Fadel A.K.A Ezz, Ezzu or "Z" (I only got called Z at a resteraunt I worked at for years)