Aqualung vs Buttercup

[Buttercup]

Ok, I'm back for a little while anyway. This may continue for several days you know? Oh well, it's fun!

I need to ask you something in the interim.....Can you tell me where you go IF you've been baptized before you die?

 

[Aqualung]

The spirit world. Everybody goes to the spirit world after they die.

 

[Buttercup]

AQUA: Do you actually know the theif wasn't baptised? You're making quite the assumption by saying that an unbaptised man went to "heaven".

Come on girl! You do realize how silly this sounds right? Who would baptize the thief? He would have remained on the cross until death. Christ did not say ...."Hold on let me get some water and then you'll be saved !" He simply said,......"today you will be with me in paradise." Which to most people means heaven. It shows that your belief alone and not the water is what saves you. And I might add by the way that you have not come up with a definition of paradise meaning anything other than heaven.

Here is a great verse that further shows that you do not need to be baptised to be saved. This is Paul speaking:

1Corinthians 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel....not with words of human wisdom lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

It is the gospel of Christ and belief in and devotion to Christ that saves you. Not water. You basicallly are trying to empy Christ of HIS POWER by saying that mere water is part of the salvation process. Belief in Christ alone saves. The water does not.

Now, I would still like to see some scripture talking about this 'spirit prison' that you claim people go to who accept Christ as Savior but have not been baptized. So, are you saying they ARE or ARE NOT saved? There is something else they have to do simply because they were not immersed in water on earth?

And....you say that people go to the spirit world after death. Is that the same thing to you as spirit prison?

I will be out of town for the rest of the day. We'll keep it going though right?

 

[Aqualung]

Come on girl! You do realize how silly this sounds right? Who would baptize the thief?

Why? How many people who are in prison now do you think have been baptised? Christ ate with the tax collectors, because they were more humble. Why is it so hard to think that somebody who got baptised later committed a sin? I know I have sinned since I got baptised!

He would have remained on the cross until death.

Oh, I think I understand what you're saying. I'm saying he got baptised before he was on the cross.

Christ did not say ...."Hold on let me get some water and then you'll be saved !" He simply said,......"today you will be with me in paradise." Which to most people means heaven.

But how could it have been heaven? Three days later he had yet to ascend to his father in heaven. Christ did not go to heaven. Neither did the theif. He went to preach to the spirits in prison, as Paul says, and he had not yet been to heaven, as christ himself says.

It shows that your belief alone and not the water is what saves you. And I might add by the way that you have not come up with a definition of paradise meaning anything other than heaven.

That's probably because dictionaries aren't very good sources for doctrinal questions.

1Corinthians 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel....not with words of human wisdom lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

It is the gospel of Christ and belief in and devotion to Christ that saves you. Not water. You basicallly are trying to empy Christ of HIS POWER by saying that mere water is part of the salvation process. Belief in Christ alone saves. The water does not.

How do you read that? It's like saying, "I am not here to teach you math, but to teach you spanish." That in no way means math is not important. But there's a certain division of labour between people. Paul was exceptionally good at preaching, so why should he do the baptising, too, when there are others to do it as well?

Did you read the previous verses? Paul baptised a guy in the name of Christ.

Now, I would still like to see some scripture talking about this 'spirit prison' that you claim people go to who accept Christ as Savior but have not been baptized. So, are you saying they ARE or ARE NOT saved? There is something else they have to do simply because they were not immersed in water on earth?

Neither. They are not saved or not not saved. True salvation does not come until the final judgement. The FINAL judgement. That's right. There's more than one judgement. I still want to know what you make of that.

And....you say that people go to the spirit world after death. Is that the same thing to you as spirit prison?

Well, for the sake of simplicity, pretty much. There's no physical difference. It's all in the eye of the beholder.

I will be out of town for the rest of the day. We'll keep it going though right?

Okay. Have a fun time wherever you are.

 

[Aqualung]

Some stuff about paradise:
Did Christ and the thief go to Paradise on that day? In order to answer the question, we need to be reminded that some Jews believed in the resurrection of the dead (Acts 23:6, 8). If a Pharisee were asked how the dead are raised (the very question that arose later in Corinth, cf. 1 Cor. 15:35), he would have said that, when righteous people die, they go to a special place where they await their resurrection. This place is called by various names. One name is "Paradise." Another is "the Bosom of Abraham."

Jewish tradition acknowledged all the elements used in Christ's parable. The poor man was carried by the angels to the Bosom of Abraham (cf. Luke 16:22 and Ketubot 104a). The Bosom of Abraham is mentioned in the writings of the intertestamental period (4 Maccabees 13:17) and in Qiddusin 72b. Most important, Abraham is "designated as he who receives...the penitent into Paradise" (Alfred Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, II, p. 280; see also `Erubin 19a).

In Christ's parable of Lazarus and the rich man, it was Lazarus who found himself in the special place (the Bosom of Abraham). To say that a dead person was in that place was the same as saying that he was righteous, because only the righteous went to Paradise to wait with Abraham.

 

[Buttercup]

Oh, I think I understand what you're saying. I'm saying he got baptised before he was on the cross.

Aqua, I have to say that you are losing with this example of the thief on the cross. None of your rebuttals regarding this scripture I quote have shown me evidence of him being baptized. If you read the scripture previous to Luke 23: 42 you will understand that Jesus and the criminal do not get to know each other until they are hanging on the cross side by side. The thief could not have been baptised before that day.

Here's the scene.....There are two criminals along with Jesus being crucified that day. One believes him to be God (vs. 40), the other does not and rebukes Christ. The thief says, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." There is no time to baptize the thief, nor would anyone knowing Jesus be allowed to baptize the thief. AND, Jesus does not say to the thief, "Now you must be baptized for your salvation to go into effect." No, he tells him he will be with him later that day......in paradise. The thief does not need to do one more thing to be saved. He believed in Christ as God and that was enough.

Did you read the previous verses? Paul baptised a guy in the name of Christ.

Yes, I did read it. And I choose to not take it out of context. Baptism is a good thing. I have never said it wasn't. But, it is not ESSENTIAL for salvation. Why would Paul say:

For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel....not with words of human wisdom lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Notice the highlighted words....THAT is what's crucial, not baptism. It is very clear to me!

True salvation does not come until the final judgement. The FINAL judgement. That's right. There's more than one judgement. I still want to know what you make of that.

I'm sorry, but this is flat out wrong Christian doctrine. Salvation comes the MOMENT you believe Christ to be Lord and Saviour. The final judgement is for the entire world to determine our earthly works and for those non believers to receive their sentence so to speak. We will have already made our decision for Christ or against him WHILE WE WERE ALIVE. You cannot be saved after you die. It's here on earth or nowhere! You are wrong here. I am very adamant about that. You CANNOT be saved after you die.

In Christ's parable of Lazarus and the rich man, it was Lazarus who found himself in the special place (the Bosom of Abraham). To say that a dead person was in that place was the same as saying that he was righteous, because only the righteous went to Paradise to wait with Abraham.

Righteous=Saved. This is your quote remember! There are many words to describe the wonderful place where Jesus is....Paradise, Heaven, Abraham's Bosom, etc. Just as there are many words to describe a car. Auto, Car, Wheels,. When Jesus tells the thief he will be in Paradise that day....what Jesus means is that he will be with HIm. Don't you see that anywhere with Christ is Heaven? And I have never in my life thought of it as a place that you go to be baptised or to continue proving, proving, proving that you love God. The place to prove it is HERE, NOW.

 

[Aqualung]

Aqua, I have to say that you are losing with this example of the thief on the cross. None of your rebuttals regarding this scripture I quote have shown me evidence of him being baptized.

I'm not saying he did get baptised. i'm just saying it's a little hasty of you to say that he didn't get baptised. After all, you haven't shown any scripture showing me that he has.

If you read the scripture previous to Luke 23: 42 you will understand that Jesus and the criminal do not get to know each other until they are hanging on the cross side by side. The thief could not have been baptised before that day.

Why is that? Is Jesus the only one who baptises people? IN fact, I can't think of one instance of Jesus baptising anybody. However, in Matthew 3:5 it says "Then went out to him [John the Baptist] Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan." Who's to say the theif wasn't one of those people who was baptised by John?

Here's the scene.....There are two criminals along with Jesus being crucified that day. One believes him to be God (vs. 40), the other does not and rebukes Christ. The thief says, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." There is no time to baptize the thief, nor would anyone knowing Jesus be allowed to baptize the thief. AND, Jesus does not say to the thief, "Now you must be baptized for your salvation to go into effect." No, he tells him he will be with him later that day......in paradise. The thief does not need to do one more thing to be saved. He believed in Christ as God and that was enough.

The theif wasn't saved! Paradise is not heaven!!! Remember the passage I keep quoting to you, about how after Jesus's resurection (that is, after the theif had been with Jesus in paradise) that Jesus says that he has not yet ascended to his father? You continue to ignore that passage. That passage is proof that paradise is not the same thing as heaven, and that therefore the theif was not "saved" because he didn't go to heaven.

Notice the highlighted words....THAT is what's crucial, not baptism. It is very clear to me!

That was what was crucial for Paul to be doing, yes. John, on the other hand, was sent to baptise people and thereby pave the way for Christ. For him, baptism was crucial, not preaching the gospel.

I'm sorry, but this is flat out wrong Christian doctrine. Salvation comes the MOMENT you believe Christ to be Lord and Saviour.

Oh? Could you give the scriptural reference that states that at the moment of belief one is now automatically saved?

The final judgement is for the entire world to determine our earthly works and for those non believers to receive their sentence so to speak. We will have already made our decision for Christ or against him WHILE WE WERE ALIVE. You cannot be saved after you die. It's here on earth or nowhere! You are wrong here. I am very adamant about that. You CANNOT be saved after you die.

Then why in heaven's name did Christ waste all that time going to preach to the spirits in prison, as Peter mention in 1 Pet 3:19, when there was no hope for them to be saved anyway? Does christ seem like the kind of person who would a) waste his time or b) would be mislead about when salvation takes place?

Righteous=Saved.

This is your quote remember!

That's right, but that's not to say that the righteous get saved immediately after they die.

When Jesus tells the thief he will be in Paradise that day....what Jesus means is that he will be with HIm. Don't you see that anywhere with Christ is Heaven?

Really? Was the theif in heaven when he was on the cross with Christ?

And I have never in my life thought of it as a place that you go to be baptised or to continue proving, proving, proving that you love God. The place to prove it is HERE, NOW.

Well, good, maybe this will show you that you're thinking is wrong. I am trying to prove it, but you continue to ignore certain key scriptures (1 Pet 3:19, John 20:17, John 3:6, etc.).

 

[Buttercup]

I think you are really misreading the thief story. The reason I keep coming back to that example is because I think it illustrates perfectly our point of argument.

You say you have to be baptized in order to be saved, I say you don't. To me, the thief on the cross story is a great, simple example of someone believing Christ was God who wasn't baptized while alive but went on to be with him in Paradise. What more do you want?

The criminal did not know Christ before his crucifixion. While the thief was hanging on the cross and talking to Jesus he believed him to be God. Jesus told him he would be with him that day in paradise. We can conclude from these lines that the man was not baptized before or after his death. He did not accept Christ as God before the cross....it was while he was hanging there. Why won't you see that? This is a very important example of someone going to paradise to be with Christ who wasn't baptized.

Now, as for the rest of your most recent post.....I don't want to debate any point other than the baptismal issue because I am learning as we go that we have vast differences in our beliefs of Christian doctrine. We would be in here debating for 20 years!

I think for me to be able to continue I need more information. I am not familiar with this place you go if you haven't been baptized so it's hard for me to refute answers if I know nothing about the subject. Can you tell me where you find the answer to this? I need to know where it states in the bible that you go to spirit prison if not baptized on earth. Where do you get that information and draw that conclusion? I have not read anything that states to the effect of: "If not baptized on earth, you go here." If you could show me an example of that, I can comment on the subject further...otherwise, I don't know what else to say! If you need me to clairfy anything just PM me.

 

[Aqualung]

:banhead3 ARGH!! I just typed up a huge long response and it got lost!!!! :banghead3 Okay, I'll have to answer you later. I'm too mad now. :banghead3

 

[Aqualung]

I think you are really misreading the thief story. The reason I keep coming back to that example is because I think it illustrates perfectly our point of argument.

It only perfectly illustrates it if a) you assume rather hastily that the theif was not baptised, b) disregard John 20:17, and c) assume that paradise is the same thing as heaven (which goes along with (b))

You say you have to be baptized in order to be saved, I say you don't. To me, the thief on the cross story is a great, simple example of someone believing Christ was God who wasn't baptized while alive but went on to be with him in Paradise. What more do you want?

I want you to tell me why you think John 20:17 and 3:6 were lies.

The criminal did not know Christ before his crucifixion.

I think he did. After all, he knew Christ did nothing wrong. It was wrong to say you were the son of god if you weren't, yet the theif knew he was telling the truth. That's knowing something.

But what does it matter if he knew Jesus? IT wasn't Jesus who was doing the majority of the baptisms in that day, or even the biblical accounts. It was John. Remember, all of Judaea visited John.

We can conclude from these lines that the man was not baptized before or after his death.

We cannot conclude that at all. You're making horribly huge jumps of conclusion.

Why won't you see that?

I could ask you the same thing. Why won't you see that the thief was not necessarily unbaptised. Why won't you see that the theif did not go to heaven, but rather to some other place. Why won't you give me answers to the questions I've asked in a billion different posts about if we go to heaven right when we die, and if so why is there is a judgement and what was paul speaking of when he spoke of the third heaven.

This is a very important example of someone going to paradise to be with Christ who wasn't baptized.

If it were really that important of an example of that, I'm sure they would have been a bit clearer about whether or not he was baptised.

Now, as for the rest of your most recent post.....I don't want to debate any point other than the baptismal issue because I am learning as we go that we have vast differences in our beliefs of Christian doctrine. We would be in here debating for 20 years!

I ddidn't think we were debating anything other than the baptismal issue. :areyoucra

I think for me to be able to continue I need more information. I am not familiar with this place you go if you haven't been baptized so it's hard for me to refute answers if I know nothing about the subject. Can you tell me where you find the answer to this? I need to know where it states in the bible that you go to spirit prison if not baptized on earth. Where do you get that information and draw that conclusion? I have not read anything that states to the effect of: "If not baptized on earth, you go here." If you could show me an example of that, I can comment on the subject further...otherwise, I don't know what else to say! If you need me to clairfy anything just PM me.

Go to www.lds.org and up at the top there is a search bar. Type in spirit world. You should get a lot of hits.

 

[Buttercup]

We cannot conclude that at all. You're making horribly huge jumps of conclusion.

And you're not by saying HE WAS baptized? Are you not jumping to conclusions by saying he was? There is more evidence from these sentences to substantiate my point than yours.

I can see that we are not going to agree on this subject even if we went on for 20 pages.

I believe, and most of Christsendom believes, that baptism is a good thing and advisable but it is not ESSENTIAL for salvation. Belief in Christ as God and following him saves you, not the water. Water has no power. Christ does. You belittle the power of Christ to say that water matters. Only a sincere belief in Christ matters in the end.

 

[Aqualung]

And you're not by saying HE WAS baptized? Are you not jumping to conclusions by saying he was? There is more evidence from these sentences to substantiate my point than yours.

No, I am not saying that he was. I'm just saying we cannot conclusively say that he wasn't. Of course, my doctrine doesn't rest on him being baptised. But yours does rest on him not being baptised. I'm just saying it's a little hasty to base your entire doctrine (since you refused to say how your doctrine accounted for the billions of questions I posted) when we don't even know he wasn't baptised.

I can see that we are not going to agree on this subject even if we went on for 20 pages.

Well, if you're going to quit, the least you could do is actually answer the questions I've asked you. It would be very disrespectful not to.

I believe, and most of Christsendom believes, that baptism is a good thing and advisable but it is not ESSENTIAL for salvation.

I know that, but you have yet to show me why you believe that (except for a doctrine based on a huge conclusion) and why you can believe that in spite of the numerous things I have showed you.

 

[Buttercup]

:banhead3 ARGH!! I just typed up a huge long response and it got lost!!!! :banghead3 Okay, I'll have to answer you later. I'm too mad now. :banghead3

I can totally relate and this is one of my pet peeves about the computer.

And what question have I not answered to your satisfaction?

I have to get some work done. :149: I'll be back!

 

[Aqualung]

I can totally relate and this is one of my pet peeves about the computer.

And what question have I not answered to your satisfaction?

I have to get some work done. :149: I'll be back!

The unanswered questions:

Why would Christ go to preach to the spirits in prison as mentioned in 1 Pet 3:19 and 1 Pet 4:6 if salvation were not possible after death?

Why do you think Christ himself would waste his time with an unnecessary expression of his faithfulness? After all, he already knew he would later have to show his faithfulness by enduring crucifixtion. Why this extra "baptism" thing if it weren't necessary?

What am I to make of Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, and 1 Pet 3:21?

What happens to all the people who are either born before Christ or are born in places where the name of Christ is unknown? If all non-believers are cast into hell (because there is no salvation after death and because unbelief is the only unpardonable sin), are all those guys just out of luck? Do they just coincidentally have to suffer in hell for all eternity?

When Christ told the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise" how could this have mean heaven as you take it to mean if a) 1 Pet 3:19 states Christ did not go to heaven but rather went to preach to the spirits in prison and b) in John 20:17 he tells somebody that he has not yet ascended to his father (he has not yet gone to heaven)?

What do you make of 2 Cor 12:2? This seems to show that it is a little more complicated than just heaven and hell.

What is the purpose of the Final judgement? Does God just let "probably clean" people into his kingdom when no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of heaven? Why two judgements if you're just ending up in the same place anyway?

How do you know the thief wasn't baptised before he became a thief?

What is the scriptural basis for saying that salvation comes at the moment you accept christ into your heart?

 

[Buttercup]

Wow, I thought we were supposed to stay on topic? I just warned you about that. Almost all the questions you ask above are not about baptism. All that I wanted to talk about in this debate was baptism being necessary for salvation. I have covered that. Unless you want to get into a battle of scriptures.

As I have said....you and I will have many differences in beliefs. This is part of the reason why the LDS and most other Christian churches have conflicts. We don't believe you can be saved after you die....you do.

 

[Aqualung]

Wow, I thought we were supposed to stay on topic? I just warned you about that. Almost all the questions you ask above are not about baptism. All that I wanted to talk about in this debate was baptism being necessary for salvation. I have covered that. Unless you want to get into a battle of scriptures.

As I have said....you and I will have many differences in beliefs. This is part of the reason why the LDS and most other Christian churches have conflicts. We don't believe you can be saved after you die....you do.

Okay, I'll tell you why they have to do with the topic at hand.

 

[Aqualung]

What the unanswered questions have to do with baptism:

Why would Christ go to preach to the spirits in prison as mentioned in 1 Pet 3:19 and 1 Pet 4:6 if salvation were not possible after death?

You brought up that you thought it was stupid to require baptism for salvation because some people will happen to die right before they get baptised. I said people could get baptised after death. You said people couldn't be saved after death. I brought up these quotes and you failed to asnwer.

Why do you think Christ himself would waste his time with an unnecessary expression of his faithfulness? After all, he already knew he would later have to show his faithfulness by enduring crucifixtion. Why this extra "baptism" thing if it weren't necessary?

This is very on topic. If baptism is not necessary, why did Christ get baptised? Why would he waste his time with an unnecessary thing?

What am I to make of Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, and 1 Pet 3:21?

All these quotes state that baptism is necessary (excpet the peter quote, which states that people can be saved after they die).

What happens to all the people who are either born before Christ or are born in places where the name of Christ is unknown? If all non-believers are cast into hell (because there is no salvation after death and because unbelief is the only unpardonable sin), are all those guys just out of luck? Do they just coincidentally have to suffer in hell for all eternity?

This is directly related to the proposition that all you need for salvation is to believe in christ, and that those who do not believe will be cast into hell, and that there is no salvation after death.

When Christ told the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise" how could this have mean heaven as you take it to mean if a) 1 Pet 3:19 states Christ did not go to heaven but rather went to preach to the spirits in prison and b) in John 20:17 he tells somebody that he has not yet ascended to his father (he has not yet gone to heaven)?

This is in argument to your thief story. You stated it was obvious that one does not need baptism because the thief "got saved". I brought up those scriptural references up to show that Jesus did not go to Heaven, and that therefore the thief, who went where Jesus went (today you shall be with me...), was not saved baptism-free.

What do you make of 2 Cor 12:2? This seems to show that it is a little more complicated than just heaven and hell.

This has more to do with your proposition that one cannot be saved after death.

What is the purpose of the Final judgement? Does God just let "probably clean" people into his kingdom when no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of heaven? Why two judgements if you're just ending up in the same place anyway?

Same as above.

How do you know the thief wasn't baptised before he became a thief?

This is challenging your belief that a non-baptised man "got saved".

What is the scriptural basis for saying that salvation comes at the moment you accept christ into your heart?

I have produced many biblical quotes that state you need baptism for salvation, and you have yet to propose one that states that you are saved the moment you accept Christ into your life.

All but like 2 of those were not DIRECTLY related to the question of baptism, and the others were related to a couple of arguments you gave in support of your theory that baptism is not necessary.

Start talkin'.

 

[Buttercup]

Wow you are stubborn! I have answered all these questions dear. I do not believe in salvation after death. I do not believe baptism is necessary for salvation. I have shown many scripture quotes backing my claims....go take a look. And I have said before I don't want to get into a battle of scripture quotes, but I could produce them!.....it's all about INTERPRETATION.

I have to say something here that you may not like....It is an incorrect idea to think that water has anything to do with salvation. Why do you think people fight the LDS church? There is one reason. It is incorrect to think you can be saved after death. Why do you think people fight the LDS church? There is another reason. Baptising the dead is incorrect thinking as well. You cannot be saved after death. That is another reason people fight the LDS church. And the list goes on as you have seen in other threads. But, I personally would not go so far as to say that your Jesus is different than our Jesus.

I feel like this debate is going around in circles and that I am hitting a brick wall...sorry, no offense. I don't think we'll get anywhere. I mean, look, we're at 4 pages and nothing settled yet!

Peace Out....and thank you!

 

[Aqualung]

I have answered all these questions dear.

No you haven't.

I do not believe in salvation after death.

But why? All you have done so far is tell me you do not believe in salvation after death. When I give you evidence that you can be saved after death, you just repeat, "I do not believe in salvation after death." There has to be some reason you believe this, and I want to know why.

I do not believe baptism is necessary for salvation.

But why? All you have done so far is tell me you do not believe in salvation after death. When I give you evidence that you can be saved after death, you just repeat, "I do not believe baptism is necessary for salvation." There has to be some reason you believe this, and I want to know why.

I have shown many scripture quotes backing my claims....

You have shown 2 scriptures that you say do not back up the fact that baptism is necessary. I have showed you probably cause that you are wrong about both. You have yet to refute those claims with something more than, "You are wrong, I am right, and that's that."

And I have said before I don't want to get into a battle of scripture quotes, but I could produce them!

Then DO IT. All doctrinal battles should be based in scripture, not in simple, "I believe it is so, and therefore it is so."

.....it's all about INTERPRETATION.

And why is your interpretation better? I think I've done a pretty good of backing up my interpretation, but you fail to do so.

I have to say something here that you may not like....It is an incorrect idea to think that water has anything to do with salvation.[/qutoe]
Yet it remains just that - a mere saying. Back it up. And then when I refute, back up your claims that I'm wrong.

Why do you think people fight the LDS church? There is one reason. It is incorrect to think you can be saved after death.

But why is that incorrect? What scripture leads you to believe that? You have yet to produce it, although I have produced a number for my side.

Why do you think people fight the LDS church? There is another reason. Baptising the dead is incorrect thinking as well. You cannot be saved after death.

But why do you say it is correct? Once again, you claim things but show absolutely no support for these beliefs, although I have shown support for my beliefs.

I feel like this debate is going around in circles and that I am hitting a brick wall...sorry, no offense. I don't think we'll get anywhere. I mean, look, we're at 4 pages and nothing settled yet!

It is going nowhere because you refuse to support your claims with anything at all. I keep asking for your reasons, and you keep withholding them from me. No wonder it's getting nowhere! You insist on keeping it at a standstill.

Peace Out....and thank you!

Is that it? You're leaving without saying one thing at all?! Wow. I thought you would be at least a little bit more able to support your beliefs than this... I'm a little disappointed.

 

[Buttercup]

Four pages is not enough? I feel as though I gave the baptism question a good run. I am tired of repeating myself. I have had quite a few people tell me I am supporting my beliefs well thank you.

And like I said.....I can produce scriptures...it is super easy online. But, it will boil down to a matter of interpretation. We will still continue to interpret differently, I think 4 pages of debate is enough to surmise that fact.