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Aqualung vs Buttercup

Discussion in 'One-on-One Debates' started by Aqualung, Feb 21, 2006.

  1. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that we no longer are required to repent? The fact that He died for our sins in no way implies that reprentence is no longer required of us. Or do you disagree?

    The last thing, the very last thing Jesus said to His Apostles before He ascended to His Father was, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

    He had previously taught that not one, but two, kinds of baptism were required for salvation: He was quite specific about that when He said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

    His followers continued to baptize people by water after He died. They knew Jesus personally. Don't you think they would have understood that water baptism was no longer required of Christ's followers if that was the case?

    Besides, when you get right down to it, water baptism never has actually cleansed a person of his sins. Only the Atonement of Christ truly cleanses. I'm sure we agree on that.

    The fact remains that Jesus said we must be baptized by both water and the spirit. You are simply ignoring that very clearly stated fact.

    Yes, belief in Christ is absolutely essential. But so is obedience to His commandments. Would you like me to post a few scriptures that teach this, or can we agree on that point?

    One does not receive the Holy Ghost simply by believing in Christ. It is a gift received by the laying on of hands (see Acts 8:18-19). This takes place after baptism by water.

    And I guess that somewhere along the line He said, "And after I die, you must only believe. Baptism will no longer be required of you." Hmmm, I can't recall ever seeing that taught.

    Yes, I can see that. But several facts remain, and I am not comfortable simply pretending that they dont:

    1. Jesus said we must be born of water and the spirit both. How can you get around this?
    2. He was baptized himself. Surely it was not for the remission of sins, so it had to be for some other reason. What do you think that reason was?
    3. He told his Apostles to continue to baptize those who would accept His gospel in the future. Why do you think he did so?
    4. Belief is something that is between a person and God. If all a person had to do to receive the Holy Spirit was to believe in Christ, what do you think Jesus meant when He told His disciples to go into all the world and to baptize those who would accept His gospel?

    I guess I'm going to have to provide you with a few verses that teach the need for obedience in addition to belief. But it's getting late. I'll do that tomorrow.

    Since you believe this so strongly, would you please post a few verses that teach that by believing in Christ, we are automatically baptized in the Holy Spirit, and that this does not require that someone perform the baptism?

    Looking forward to your reply and to a good experience for all of us. :)

    Squirt
     
  2. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Yes, but you said earlier that it was baptism that cleansed people's sins of those born prior to Christ, and this his atonement was only for those who were born after him, and that this is why they didn't need to be baptised.

    But that's what repenting is. Humbling yourself and sincerely asking for forgiveness.
     
  3. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

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    Baptism does not save anyone. It doesn't matter whether it's baptism by water or by the Spirit. The Atonement of Jesus Christ is what saves you. However, Christ requires something of us, too. He requires that we receive these two kinds of baptism.

    Where does the Bible state that this is a "non-issue"? It's a commandment! How can a commandment be a "non-issue"? :confused:

    Dawny, neither Aqualung nor I have said that we are saved by being baptized. Honestly, we don't believe that. Never in a million years could any of us be saved by having been baptized or by living a life overflowing with good works. It simply would not be possible. Correct me if I'm wrong, please, but it sounds to me as if you're saying that only one thing is required of us -- belief in Jesus Christ. We don't have to repent of our sins and we don't have to obey His commandments. He said we need to be baptized of water and of the spirit, but we can ignore the water baptism if we wish. Nothing, absolutely nothing is required of us except belief. Why, may I ask, do you even think that faith in Him is necessary? If He died to atone for our sins, why is it necessary for us to even have to believe? A gift is, after all, given freely. Why would He have required us to believe in order to receive this gift? And why, if He did require that much of us, would He not have also required us to repent of our sins and obey His commandments?
     
  4. Buttercup

    Buttercup Veteran Member

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    Of course repentance of our sins, obeying his commandments and belief that Christ is God are what is necessary for salvation. I figured that was a given. I have just been saying all along that you can do ALL that without being baptized with water and be saved. You are baptised by the Holy Spirit when you accept Christ and ask for forgiveness of our sins. The water isn't essential.
     
  5. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

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    Dawny, it looks to me as if you've drawn a conclusion based on something other than what the Bible teaches. I know you believe that only those individuals who lived prior to when Jesus died needed to be baptized. I understand that. What I don't understand is why you believe this. Where in the scriptures are we told that once Christ had risen, the commandment to be baptized no longer applied?

    I'm also curious about something else? When do you believe the practice of water baptism originated? If you believe that it began with John the Baptist and ended with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who exactly did it apply to? You don't think it was necessary at all once Christ rose from the dead. If it started with John the Baptist, what was the fate of the millions who died before he began baptizing? It sounds as if you're talking about a period of roughly three years in length. Are you aware that there are over 100 mentions of baptism in the New Testament? How would you explain that much emphasis on a practice that is a "non-issue" for 99.9% of all people who have ever lived or will live?
     
  6. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Absolutely NOT. I'm saying that WATER baptism does not save us nor does it atone for our shortcoming. ONLY CHRIST JESUS can do that.

    Christians MUST repent for their sins. I'm not saying that we aren't at all.

    Yes. I've never discounted the importance of water baptism (if this verse is even referring solely to water baptism)...my argument is that WATER baptism does not save a person.

    Yes. And I'm not disputing that we should undergo water baptism. Christ tells us that we should.

    I'm stil firm in stating that WATER baptism does not save your soul.

    In the VERY SAME Chapter of the book of John...Jesus Christ states this...

    John 3:16...

    "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in HIM should not perish but have everlasting life."

    John 3:17

    "For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

    John 3:18

    "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed int he name of the only begotten Son of God."

    Christ saves. Water does not. Water baptism is important but these verses in the very same chapter answers a question that many ask...

    What of people who accept Christ but die before they can be baptised in water? When you accept Christ...you've already received the SPIRITUAL baptism, or else you wouldn't be a Christian. According to the Bible...that's sufficient...your belief in Christ...your personal walk with Christ is sufficient. Why? Because CHRIST saved you. HIS BLOOD saved you. NOT water.

    Again, Christ told us to baptize. I'm NOT debating that water baptism is important. I'm being baptized AGAIN this Spring because I KNOW it's what Christ wants me to do. However, the water baptism doesn't wash me clean of my sins...it symbolizes my rebirth. Christ Jesus has already forgiven me of my sins because I humbled myself before Him and asked Him to forgive me and to come into my life...to take the wheel in my life. And I FELT the Holy Spirit when I received the indwelling come upon me and have felt the rebirth first hand. I KNOW I'm saved. By the BLOOD of CHRIST.

    Yes...we can agree on this.:D

    No.

    But if one were to pass on before receiving the water baptism...I know in my heart and hearts...that according to the WORD of my FATHER...when that person accepted Christ Jesus as their Personal Saviour, they WERE cleansed of their sins. And I believe whole heartedly that if their intent was to be baptized in water...they WOULD be accepted in the kingdom of heaven.

    One can be water baptized but not have Christ in their hearts.

    If one has received the Holy Spirit...there's not doubt...they've been saved by Christ.

    Yes...but you're focusing one ONE point. I'm NOT discounting the importance of water baptism...I'm trying to illustrate to you that water baptism is NOT the ticket to eternal life.

    Wrong. I have very much received the Holy Spirit and I have yet to be baptized in water. I had hands laid on me and I spoke in tongues, as the bible states. You recieve the Holy Ghost when you open your heart to receive. When you lay your life down and ask the Lord Jesus Christ to forgive you and to come into you life and to change you...to mold you to suit HIS will not your own. This is the spiritual baptism. The water baptism can come after.

    I didn't say that. I've reiterated over and over that I feel the water baptism is important.

    You can't receive Christ without belief in Christ. That was my point.

    I'm not trying to. I'm stating to you that WATER doesn't save you. CHRIST saves you. I'm stating that if I die tomorrow...I know where I'm going and can say so confidently because I've accepted Christ into my life...I have CHRIST in my heart.

    To show US how we should live. I'm not discounting the importance of the water baptism.

    See my answer to #2.

    Not a soul would be baptized unless they FIRST accepted CHRIST Jesus. And upon doing so...what happens? You receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Again...I'm not discounting water baptism but what is the greater of the two? THE SPIRITUAL baptism. Without it...you're NOT a Christian...period.

    Okey dokey.:)

    I NEVER said that we didn't NEED to be baptized. And as a Christian...you should understand the concept of receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...it happens the moment of rebirth.

    I'll still quote scripture for you. I'll focus on the rebirth...which in my opinion...is the most important aspect of becoming a Christian...without it...without that internal change from within...one probably hasn't received the Holy Spirit.

    I agree. Looking forward to your replies as well.
     
  7. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I know this is what you've been saying all along. Now could we move on to where the Bible also says this?

    1. Where does the Bible say that baptism by water is not a requirement for salvation?
    2. Where does it say that you are baptized by the Holy Spirit when you accept Christ?
    3. What do you think Jesus meant when He commanded His Apostles to go into the world and baptize those who would accept His gospel?
     
  8. Buttercup

    Buttercup Veteran Member

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    Squirt....did you read any of my posts? Dawny and I say almost exactly the same things. It's the belief in Christ and repentance of your sins that saves you. Can we all agree on that yet?
     
  9. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

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    Aqualung, Buttercup and Dawny...

    Goodnight all! Pleasant dreams. See you tomorrow.

    Squirt
     
  10. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    Matthew 10: 13-15 King James Version

    13- Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

    14- But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me ?

    15- And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.


    Matthew 3: 41-44 Joseph Smith Translation

    41- And then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan, unto John, to be bapttized of him;

    42-And John refused him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and why comest thou to me ?

    43- And Jesus answering, said unto him, Suffer me to be baptized of thee, for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

    44- And John went down unto the water and baptized him.
     
  11. Buttercup

    Buttercup Veteran Member

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    Squirt,

    This site is really slow at night for some reason for me...it's frustrating. It's taken me 15 mintues just to post the little bit that I have. After this I am getting offline.

    This whole debate started from another thread where Aqua said those people that accepted Christ and repented but weren't baptized while on earth go to 'spirit prison'. Most Prostestant Christians believe if you have accepted Christ and repented of your sins you are saved and then receive the Holy Spirit. IF you die before being baptized, you still go to be with Christ. This was the original point started in another place and brought here.

    I want to know where the LDS come up with the idea that if you accept Christ as Lord and Saviour, repent of your sins but die before baptism takes place, you go to spirit prison. That's where we took off on the notion that the water does not save you. Your beliefs do. Baptism is a good thing and advisable as we keep saying. But no where does it teach in scripture that you go to 'spirit prison' if you die without baptism. Show us where it says this please.
     
  12. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    If you have accepted Christ, and have died, but were never baptized, you will be given the opportunity to accept the ordinance of baptism in the next life. This is why Latter-day Saints do baptisms for the dead.

    Edit: Spirit Prison is for those that have not accepted Christ as their Savior. Spirit Paradise is for those that have accepted Christ as their Savior.
     
  13. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    I'm going to type this up tonight...to give you gals more support on my POV.

    First off, I know that you two are LDS. If you were to label me denominationally...my approach to worship and the Bible, lies somewhere between Charismatic and Pentecostal. I attend a Pentecostal church, although, we don't "advertise" as being such. We're more so "advertised" as being non-denominational.

    All excerpts in this post are from a little booklet called "The New Birth" by Kenneth E. Hagin. If you know anything about RHEMA...you'll know of Kenneth Hagin. :)

    We believe VERY MUCH in the rebirth. And the "rebirth" or newbirth is discussed in John...Chapter 3:1-21.

    I'm going to kind of break down my beliefs of how one becomes a Christian...and undergoes the rebirth.

    (Anthing I take from this book word for word...("The New Birth" by Kenneth E. Hagin)...I'll post as a quote.)

    "Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new."

    2 Corinthians 5:17

    According to the Bible, when we accept Christ into our lives, in essence...we're dying to live. We're laying our lives down to accept a new life in Christ, Jesus.

    When you accept Christ...repent for your sins and open your heart to Him...you receive the Holy Spirit. At our Church, the Pastor and even members of the congregation lay hands on you. And it's an amazing experience...when I went up to the front of the church and received...it was the most amazingly spiritual experience of my entire life. I literally felt a spritual release of all the baggage I had carried my entire life...all the sin...the hurt...the worry...it dissipated. In a spiritual sense...I felt Satan lose his grip on my heart and then felt the warmth and fire of the Holy Spirit come upon me...enveloping me...filling me. There was no doubt that I had received the Lord Jesus Christ. No doubt. I felt a freedom and have felt a freedom since then that is just awesome. There is no peace like the peace that is found in Christ.

    Once I had the Holy Spirit working within me...I began to change. The world...all the uglies of the world just seemed smaller and smaller and wholesome things began to mean more to me. I was literally changing from within. I was a new person. This is the new birth in Christ.

    And the New Birth can be broken down into steps...(Note...I'm quoting from the book but I'm substituting the KJV with the NKJV because well...you know...easier to follow...)

    For further biblical support, you can also refer to:
    John 3:14-21
    John 3:36
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    The next "step" is the Water of the New BIrth...read this one very carefully...

    Wanted to provide you with another intepretation of "water" baptism. I lean toward accepting that we are to be born of WATER AND THE SPIRIT in this sense moreso than I believe that the WATER baptism in a literal sense is necessary to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

    And it makes sense. You can't come to Christ without accepting the WORD of God....the "water".
     
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  14. Buttercup

    Buttercup Veteran Member

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    Wow Dawny....that booklet is PERFECT. I needed that! I agree with his statements 100%. Good post.
     
  15. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    The physical ordinance of baptism, must be accepted, either in this life, or in the next, in order to live with Chirst and the Father.
     
  16. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    Spirit Prison is a place that is reserved for those that do not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior.

    Spirit Paradise is for those that have accepted Christ as their Savior.

    Baptism is a necessary ordinance that must be recieved in order to permanently live where Christ and the Father dwell.
     
  17. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    Baptism will be offered to those in Spirit Paradise, so that they will be able to live permanently with the Father and the Son in their kingdoms.

    Again this is why Latter-day Saints continually do baptisms for the dead in over 100 temples that dot the earth.
     
  18. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    "There is also an antitype which now saves us-baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh but the answer of a good conscience toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 3:21

    I wasn't trying to be rude or anything by bolding the above scripture. I just wanted to make sure that you really READ that verse. Because...the verses prior to that speak of Jesus preaching in the prison.

    "The removal of the filth of the flesh" points towards water baptism...we're being told in this verse is no longer necessary because NOW...because of Christ's resurection...we can go to God in good conscience...

    This baptism refers to spiritual baptism...not water baptism. We no longer need water baptism. Why? Christ Jesus is NOW Spirit. And we can NOW receive the Spirit via spiritual baptism.

    Here is further scripture to support that it is by the SPIRITUAL Baptism which results in accepting, believing in and having faith in Christ that we receive...

    "For by Grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God. not of works lest anyone should boat." Ephesians 2:8-9

    Faith in who? Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ saves.

    "There is ONE body and one Spirit,just as you were called in one hope of your calling: one Lord, one faith, one baptism; and one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in you all." Ephesians 4:4-6

    This is referring to Spirit...not water. Who dwells within us? Christ. How does Christ dwell within you? In Spirit.

    "Or did you not know that as many of us were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Romans 6:3-4

    Baptism in these verses refers to baptism in a spiritual sense.

    "For you all are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Galations 3:26-27

    This refers to spiritual baptism...not water baptism.

    After researching...I have found ONE verse which refers to water baptism as a symbol...but if you're inclined to believe otherwise...you probably will not interpret this verse as such...although most Christians would see it as such.

    When you become a Christian...the Holy Spirit comes upon you. This something that is truly more FELT on a spiritual level than understood on a mental level...

    "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." Romans 8:9

    The baptism that I'm referring to occurs WHEN you accept Christ...according the Word of God...without the indwelling you are not Christ's...you are not a Christian.

    He meant just as he said. I'm NOT disputing this. But this can VERY WELL refer to the SPIRITUAL baptism as opposed to the Water baptism. You and I can't know this. It's easy to plug in "water" baptism because that's what we do when we become Christians...we undergo "water" baptism...but before that...comes Spiritual baptism...when you accept Christ as your Saviour and receive the indwelling of the Spirit.
     
  19. Buttercup

    Buttercup Veteran Member

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    Let's see if I can post this without it taking 10 minutes. The site seems to be better now. Does anyone else have the problem of slow page loading/ I have complained to Todd and he says he is working on it. I will be getting offline soon however.

    Thanks for the explanations FFH. If you and I had debated it would have ended much sooner! I see that spirit prison and spirit paradise are quite different places. This is news to me! Do LDS teachings teach that someone in spirit prison can be saved after death?
     
  20. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    This would be a whole separate debate.

    Spiritual baptism is necessary. Water baptism is symbolic...important...but symbolic.

    I was NOT washed clean by water. I washed clean by the blood of my Saviour.
     
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