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Aqualung vs Buttercup

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Luckily I just had to go around the corner to pick up my son and he already ate dinner so I don't have to fix any tonight! Yay!

First of all I think other people would be interested to learn about this spirit prison you talk about so I don't see why you wouldn't want to let others in. And I am not attacking you! Not unless you consider asking questions as attacking! :)

Let's keep it simple then. Show me scripture in the bible where it says a person goes to 'spirit prison' if they believe Christ to be God and have accepted him as Saviour, but they die before a baptism ceremony can be performed.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Because I don't really feel like defending the spirit prison to the entire forum again, with everybody attacking me from all sides.

Let me first ask you this. where does it say that only certain people need to be baptised to be saved?
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Unless you are born of the water and of the spirit, you cannot enter into the kingdom of god. That's a pretty final statement. It's not, if you have the chance, get baptised, but if not, oh well. It's a final. If you have to get baptised to enter into the kingdom of god, that means that if you don't get baptised, you can't enter into the kingdom of god, and thus you must go the spirit prison.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Not really fair answering my question with a question but I'll forgive it this time.

I need to go look up specific scripture for this but you also need to use common sense.

Does this make sense? You accept Christ as Saviour into your life today. You are sincere and happy about it. It is a decisive choice. You are sure. Then, tonight on your way home from work you get hit by a bus and die. You think you would be punished in 'spirit prison' for dying before a baptism ceremony can be performed?

Christ says the ONLY unforgivable sin is non belief in Him. I don't think not getting baptised in this case sends you anywhere but to HIM.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Buttercup said:
Not really fair answering my question with a question but I'll forgive it this time.

I need to go look up specific scripture for this but you also need to use common sense.

Does this make sense? You accept Christ as Saviour into your life today. You are sincere and happy about it. It is a decisive choice. You are sure. Then, tonight on your way home from work you get hit by a bus and die. You think you would be punished in 'spirit prison' for dying before a baptism ceremony can be performed?

Christ says the ONLY unforgivable sin is non belief in Him. I don't think not getting baptised in this case sends you anywhere but to HIM.
does it make sense for Christ to have lied the billion times he said that baptism was necessary? It makes sense. It's not like the spirit prison is Abu Gharib or something. it's just a place. And those who have baptisms done for them after they die are in no way disadvantaged by this. They still can recieve exhaltation. But Christ repeatedly drilled into our brains that baptism is a necessity.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Tell me then what a person does in this 'spirit prison' to make it up to Christ that they happened to die before their church's next baptismal ceremony? I don't know about your church but ours only has them every other month. So, are you saying that THE MOMENT you accept Christ you'd better be near some water?
 

Aqualung

Tasty
What? I don't understand the question. Could you try rephrasing it? Perhaps put some extra words in there? The wordier the better! :)
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
It's basically the same question I've been asking you for about an hour now. :)

Are you saying that you'd better be near some water when you accept Christ into your life because if you die on the way home without being baptised you go to 'spirit prison'? Show me scripture to back it up because I don't have any about a 'spirit prison'. It's not taught in basic Protestant churches. It's up to you to show me.

What do you do in this spirit prison to 'prove' to Christ that you love him? Why would taking a shower prove it? You've already given your heart to him while alive.

Water baptism is symbolic for the washing away of sin that happens once you accept Christ as God and Saviour. It is an advisable ceremony but your salvation does not depend on it.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Buttercup said:
Are you saying that you'd better be near some water when you accept Christ into your life because if you die on the way home without being baptised you go to 'spirit prison'? Show me scripture to back it up because I don't have any about a 'spirit prison'. It's not taught in basic Protestant churches. It's up to you to show me.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Christ says over and over again, that unless one is baptised they cannot be saved. There are no ifs, ands, or buts in that. If you are not baptised, you cannot be saved.

What do you do in this spirit prison to 'prove' to Christ that you love him? Why would taking a shower prove it? You've already given your heart to him while alive.
You'd pretty much do the same stuff you do here. You'd have to live your life in a way that proved you loved him.

If "taking a shower" really weren't so important, why did Christ have to do it? Why did he say over and over again that unless you are baptised, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven? Why? That's pretty much the one question I want you to answer. Was Christ lying when he said that?

Water baptism is symbolic for the washing away of sin that happens once you accept Christ as God and Saviour. It is an advisable ceremony but your salvation does not depend on it.
Then why does christ say your salvation does depend on it? Unless you are born of the water and of the spirit you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. That seems pretty cut and dry. You're really going to have to do some explaining about how this verse can be taken to mean that your salvation actually doesn't depend on baptism.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Aqua: Yes, that's what I'm saying. Christ says over and over again, that unless one is baptised they cannot be saved. There are no ifs, ands, or buts in that. If you are not baptised, you cannot be saved.
Consider the thief on the cross (Luke 23:39-43). He said to Jesus, "Remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" In response Jesus didn't say, "Get baptized!" but rather (v. 43), "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise."

You have said before that Jesus makes NO EXCEPTIONS. What about this? It furthers my point that the act of salvation is dependent on giving your heart & mind to Christ. Not the water baptism itself. Remember how I keep asking, what happens if you die before you can get baptised? The verse above gives you the answer. The thief was not baptised before he died, yet Christ tells him he will be with him in heaven.

Aqua: You'd pretty much do the same stuff you do here. You'd have to live your life in a way that proved you loved him.
So you are saying that you have to keep proving to Christ that you love him even after you die?

I asked several times for you to show me scripture about this 'spirit prison'. I genuinely want to know more. I assume it's something like purgatory but I am not familiar with LDS teachings except in a broad sense. And I have not read anything on the forum about spirit prison so I missed the debate you refer to in an early post up above. Explain to me where you come up with the notion that if you die without being baptised you go somewhere other than straight to heaven.

The water of a baptismal ceremony does not save you. It is a public announcement of your devotion to Christ and the symbolic washing away of your sins. The early apostles performed baptisms to reiterate this point. As I said before, it is advisable but not necessary. The thief on the cross is a good example.

What salvation means is your belief in, and devotion to Christ. You''ve given yourself to him.

"Jesus answered "Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh but that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:5-6"

Jesus also says, "In Acts 1:5...

"...for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

John the Baptist who baptized Jesus Christ says this...

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentence, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Matthew 3:11

Baptism is a good idea. It does not save you however. Your beliefs do.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Consider the thief on the cross (Luke 23:39-43). He said to Jesus, "Remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" In response Jesus didn't say, "Get baptized!" but rather (v. 43), "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise."
Yes, but paradise is just another name for the spirit prison. It's a specific place in the spirit prison for those who have been good during this life. How do I know that "paradise" is just another word for the spirit world? Well, where did Jesus go when he died? As 1 Peter 3:19 states, he "preached unto the spirits in prison." Remember, he said today you will be with me in paradise, not today you will be with me in my father's kingdom.

So you are saying that you have to keep proving to Christ that you love him even after you die?
Yep. After all, our eternal spirits don't just stop existing after death.

Explain to me where you come up with the notion that if you die without being baptised you go somewhere other than straight to heaven.
I'm trying. I'm trying to show you that you need to be baptised to be saved. IT's mandatory. I'm also trying to show you that the spirit prison is a place that actually exists.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
The water of a baptismal ceremony does not save you. It is a public announcement of your devotion to Christ and the symbolic washing away of your sins.
Then why on earth did Christ repetedly say that baptism was necessary? Look at all these times that Christ or his desciples or apostles said that baptism is essential.

What salvation means is your belief in, and devotion to Christ. You''ve given yourself to him.
Salvation means just what it says - salvation. You're getting saved from something. From what? Eternal death.

Jesus also says, "In Acts 1:5...

"...for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
Who was he talking to? Those who had already been baptised with water. AFter all, in John 3:5 it says unless you are born of the water and of the spirit... So they were being born of the spirit.
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
Aqua: Yes, but paradise is just another name for the spirit prison. It's a specific place in the spirit prison for those who have been good during this life. How do I know that "paradise" is just another word for the spirit world? Well, where did Jesus go when he died? As 1 Peter 3:19 states, he "preached unto the spirits in prison." Remember, he said today you will be with me in paradise, not today you will be with me in my father's kingdom.
I just simply don't agree with this statement. In mainstream Protestant faiths we believe there is Heaven or Hell. Nothing inbetween. We don't ascribe to a belief in a 'spirit prison'. When Jesus states ""Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise", ....I am taking it that he means heaven literally. Definition of paradise:

# noun: (Christianity) the abode of righteous souls after death
# noun: any place of complete bliss and delight and peace
Or:
1 a place or condition of great happiness where everything is exactly as you would like it to be.

Aqua: Yep. After all, our eternal spirits don't just stop existing after death.
No, they do live on. But we have proven our love & devotion for Christ WHILE ALIVE. We don't have to keep on proving that after we die. Sure we will still love him and serve him in heaven but we will have chosen him while down here on earth. If it wasn't cruicial for us to prove our love for Jesus while we are alive, why were we born for in the first place if we could be saved after death?

I checked the links you provided but many of the scripture must be from the Book Of Mormon. I don't believe the book of Mormon to be a holy book so I can't use much from those links.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Buttercup said:
I just simply don't agree with this statement. In mainstream Protestant faiths we believe there is Heaven or Hell. Nothing inbetween. We don't ascribe to a belief in a 'spirit prison'. When Jesus states ""Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise", ....I am taking it that he means heaven literally. Definition of paradise:
But how can he mean heaven literally? John 20:17, which takes place after Jesus's resurection, has him expressly saying, "I have not yet ascended to my father." Paradise, which would more correctly be translated "world of spirits" is not heaven.

# noun: (Christianity) the abode of righteous souls after death
# noun: any place of complete bliss and delight and peace
Or:
1 a place or condition of great happiness where everything is exactly as you would like it to be.
You know, for some reason, it just doesn't hold much weight when people try to define their doctrine with the dictionary instead of scripture...

No, they do live on. But we have proven our love & devotion for Christ WHILE ALIVE.
Yes, indeed, but what about those who will never hear of christ WHILE ALIVE? What about those who only live a few years? Do they have an unfair handicap?

We don't have to keep on proving that after we die.
So after we die, we can turn ourselves over to the devil and Christ wouldn't care?

Sure we will still love him and serve him in heaven but we will have chosen him while down here on earth. If it wasn't cruicial for us to prove our love for Jesus while we are alive, why were we born for in the first place if we could be saved after death?
If it were crucial, why do some people get unfair advantage of an 80 year life born to christian parents, rather than a 10 year life in china?

I checked the links you provided but many of the scripture must be from the Book Of Mormon. I don't believe the book of Mormon to be a holy book so I can't use much from those links.
Yeah, I know. Just don't read the BoM quotes. It doesn't make the rest of the quotes any less applicable, though. What did you think of the Bible quotes?
 

Buttercup

Veteran Member
But how can he mean heaven literally? John 20:17, which takes place after Jesus's resurection, has him expressly saying, "I have not yet ascended to my father." Paradise, which would more correctly be translated "world of spirits" is not heaven.
Show me where you find the translation of Paradise as meaning "world of spirits".

You know, for some reason, it just doesn't hold much weight when people try to define their doctrine with the dictionary instead of scripture...
I'm not using the dictionary to define doctrine. I'm using it to define the word paradise. How else can we agree on what that word means? I think it means Heaven. You think it means 'spirit prison' or 'world of spirits'. Why would a thief on a cross want to go to a place called spirit prison? Jesus meant heaven to live with him.

So after we die, we can turn ourselves over to the devil and Christ wouldn't care
This statement may just end the debate for me. Are you saying that we are still influenced by the devil after we die?

If it were crucial, why do some people get unfair advantage of an 80 year life born to christian parents, rather than a 10 year life in china?
This makes no sense to me. Please explain.

Yeah, I know. Just don't read the BoM quotes. It doesn't make the rest of the quotes any less applicable, though. What did you think of the Bible quotes?
If you want to have a battle of the quotes....I can come up with just as many to show my point that you don't have to be baptised to be saved.
___________________________
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Buttercup said:
Show me where you find the translation of Paradise as meaning "world of spirits".
I'll try to dig something up.

I'm not using the dictionary to define doctrine. I'm using it to define the word paradise. How else can we agree on what that word means? I think it means Heaven. You think it means 'spirit prison' or 'world of spirits'. Why would a thief on a cross want to go to a place called spirit prison? Jesus meant heaven to live with him.
The theif didn't "want" that. The theif asked to go to Christ's kingdom. Christ, on the other hand, knowing that you cannot enter the kingdom of god without baptism, offered him something else - to be with him in the "world of the spirits" or paradise, as it is rendered in that place.

This statement may just end the debate for me. Are you saying that we are still influenced by the devil after we die?
Yep.

This makes no sense to me. Please explain.
If the only judgement ground we have is earth, between the time of our birth to the time of our death, it doesn't seem very fair of God to give one man 80 years to turn to christ, especially if that man lives those 80 years in a christian society; and give another child only 10 years to turn to christ but place that child in a place where they don't even know christ exists; and then damn the guy who didn't turn to christ to an eternal lake of fire. Earth just cannot be a just, loving god's only judgement.

If you want to have a battle of the quotes....I can come up with just as many to show my point that you don't have to be baptised to be saved.
You have only come up with one, which I have rebutted (with, "how can it be heaven when Christ himself said after his resurection that he had not yet gone to his father"). You'd definitely better start digging.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Here's some other stuff for you to think about. Do you actually know the theif wasn't baptised? You're making quite the assumption by saying that an unbaptised man went to "heaven".

You say that's there just heaven and hell, yes? There's nothing in between, and you're either going to heaven or to hell, yes? How do you explain 2 Cor. 12:2?

Now, when you die, do you just go to heaven right away? What about the judgement? What about the "final judgement" that has to take place (as it speaks of in Revelation)? Now, if there's two judgements, where do you go between? Do you just "sort of" go to heaven, you know, if you were probably good enough? Would god allow something that was probably clean into his presence?
 
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