Apostates of Islam

[Fatihah]

How can you unanswer a question:areyoucra,i have never heard that anywhere except from you,i wish i had thought of it before imagine,school would have been a breeze.

Response: Easy. By not answering the question.

 

[England my lionheart]

Did i fabricate it ? no,did Bukhari? i doubt it,i don't have issues as to why the Man was killed,many leaders in history have had people killed and even abused their power to do it,the Hadith was posted for one reason only and that is the Hadiths are the cause of all thats wrong with Islam at the moment.
Just to forward my argument, for example the Quran,if a Muslim society were Quranites an Apostate would not be punished,correct?,however in Islamic states and Egypt they would be punished just like Kareem Soliman,correct? so it seems to me the Ahadith are a problem.

 

[.lava]

Muslims defending their land are pictured as terrorists in Western media. according to Western media not even one single Muslim with a gun in his hand could be on right side. i know this is not true. so what about this guy from Egypt? is he some kind of hero according to Western media? you know, that leaves question marks in my mind. i do not trust how Media represent this or that people. i rather like to hear what our Muslim friends from Egypt think about him.

.

 

[England my lionheart]

Muslims defending their land are pictured as terrorists in Western media. according to Western media not even one single Muslim with a gun in his hand could be on right side. i know this is not true. so what about this guy from Egypt? is he some kind of hero according to Western media? you know, that leaves question marks in my mind. i do not trust how Media represent this or that people. i rather like to hear what our Muslim friends from Egypt think about him.


.

It may surprise you Lava that many of his supporters are in fact Muslims,as for every Muslim toting a gun being an enemy,not true,the Afghan forces that fight alongside our Soldiers are very highly regarded comrades.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

It may surprise you Lava that many of his supporters are in fact Muslims,as for every Muslim toting a gun being an enemy,not true,the Afghan forces that fight alongside our Soldiers are very highly regarded comrades.

There's a lot of truth to what .lava said about the media portrayal, but it's not completely true, as England pointed out here. Good post.

There are lots of images in the media of Muslims with guns being depicted as heroes, or just being depicted neutrally, look at the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan or the Iraqi army and security forces or the Kurds. It has nothing to do with Islam, it's all political (from the Western perspective). Rightly or wrongly, some groups are seen in a better light than others but it really has to do with perceptions of democracy, oppression, "America's interests" etc., not whether or not people belong to this or that religion. (Although there are maybe 20% of fundamentalist Christian Americans who are outspoken bigots and prejudiced against all Muslims, even our allies, bizarrely.)

 

[keithnurse]

You are still not getting the sahih point and I suggest you go and read up on it. As the same people who narrated the hadith also where the ones who recorded the Quran then what is to prevent them from fabricating it? Could they not have done so and added the verse that the Quran cant be corrupted? This seems where your line of thought leads.

Also is it posible that all hadiths are fabricted. The hadith on prayer add to whats in the Quran so could these have been fabricated by munafiqs? Would it be justified for us to simply pray any way we like based on the fact that the Quran only tells us to pray?

Examples and proof? Now I don't deny things have been added but this doesnt mean that we choose any hadith we dont like and can label if fake. I can show you real fake hadiths and give you the evidence for it but this is not what you are doing here.

But we cant tell whats correct and not? In that case it would be best to just do away with tem all? There is a science of hadith for examining the stregth of them. Based on your methadology all them could be wrong so we should maybe reject them all. Especially since those who are part of the chain in the apostasy hadiths are also narrators of thousands of other hadith on wide ranges of subjects which we accept without question. Obviously going by you these hadith on prayer, zakat etc must now be in doubt given their chain contains a potential munafiq?

No of course its not wrong but to say only read the Quran is wrong. This is the way of the deviant Quranites and this is where this line of thinking ultimatly leads.

.lava every Muslim knows that these verses are for the non Muslims, not the apostate or the Muslim. Islam for exaple compels me to pray, grow a beard, not steal, not commit zina. The above verses mean don't compel someone to accept Islam but for Muslims there are compulsions as I noted. This not only is the belief of ahlus sunnah wal jamaah but it is common sense. Is it not compuslsory for you to pray?

Thanks, Abu Khalid, for speaking the truth about Islam.

 

[kai]

It may surprise you Lava that many of his supporters are in fact Muslims,as for every Muslim toting a gun being an enemy,not true,the Afghan forces that fight alongside our Soldiers are very highly regarded comrades.

the Afghans and the Iraqis are very brave people they have to deal with homicidal/suicidal religious maniacs on a day to day basis.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Response: Unless you can highlight any word of mine which is synonymous to "pyochopathic murders", then your claim is stands on nothing. You can't claim that a statement means something if the words in your claim are not there in the statement.

You are knocking down a straw man, I was using hyperbole. Meanwhile you ignored my basic points. For the record, here they are:

• You repeatedly bring up murder when no one said anything about murder; as if murder goes hand-in-hand with apostates (see post # 1072);
• The glorious Islamic state you envision assumes certain people are guilty of plotting murder, because they are "gathered by the officers of the state...to be put to death" (your words), unless this is interrupted by them making a special plea for peace, and agreeing to a special contract which other people do not have to go through (see post # 904);
• You say the point is self-defense, but only certain people are treated this way; if it was really about self-defense, there would be a penalty for murderers, period; apostates would not be special in this regard;
• You talk about the "strategies" of people opposing Islam by converting and then becoming apostates, because somehow this helps them kill Muslims. (That sounds rather like something a psychopathic murderer would do, to me.) This is just the Islamic version of McCarthyism.
• In conclusion, the thinking you express on this issue is full of
  • paranoia,
  • prejudice,
  • bigotry,
  • inequality, and
  • lame excuses for state-sponsored threats and intimidation.

And, I should add, if you are worried about people who convert to Islam and then convert back, why do you make no distinction among apostates? People like ayani or Kodanshi grew up Muslim. They didn't oppose Islam before they were born, and grow up Muslim as a strategy to get close to their own friends and family. They didn't move into a Muslim country, convert to Islam, then leave the country, as a spy might. Their change of heart and mind was not a getaway, unless you call being shunned by your own family a getaway.

For the record:

Response: It's not if he or she decides to live in peace. However, if they do not and try to kill a muslim, then it is a matter of life or death.

(Responding to keithnurse, who mentioned apostates, not killing.)

Response: The ruling on apostasy is death. That ruling is made by the head of state or the ruler like in any country. I can not take the laws in my own hand.

So let us hypothetically say that I am the head of a muslim country and I have come to learn that someone has in fact became an apostate. This person would be gathered by the officers of the state and will be summoned to be put to death. Why? Because one of the strategies of the opposition to muslims is to pretend to be a muslim, thereby abling them to get close to the muslims and know how they operate which would make it easier for them to attack the muslims. Then they would denounce the religion and return to their allies and attack the muslims.
...
However, no person is killed if they wish for peace. But if they do in fact wish for peace, an arrangement must be made within a contract between the muslims. This arrangement will assure both the muslims and the apostate that they will be able to live in peace with each other without fear of death or harm to either side.

People can judge for themselves if my criticism of your argument has been fair or unfair.

Response: You said: "You've repeatedly mentioned self-defense and someone trying to kill you when that has nothing to do with apostates". Now you must explain why this has nothing to do with apostates. The topic of the thread is what is the ruling when dealing with apostates and when I supply the answer as to the ruling you tell me that it has nothing to do with apostates. I'm talking about apostates in my whole explaination. So now you tell us how this has nothing to do with apostates.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I realize you think there is an intrinsic connection between someone who changes their religion from Islam to something else, and the mysterious, tireless non-Muslim terrorists who are plotting to kill you. If you can claim this sinister connection without evidence, it can be dismissed without evidence.

Response: No it would not make sense to attack when they are close to them because how would they get away?

How does changing their mind about religion help them get away in the physical world? How far away, ideologically, do they have to be from Islam so that they can "get away" but are still close enough to commit violence?

I think it would clear up a lot of confusion if you could describe some specific, known cases in the modern era of sleeper cells leaving Islam for some other religion mentally, or verbally or symbolically, in order to facilitate violent terrorist attacks physically on Muslim people, even though all their friends and family might be Muslim. I realize this distinction between the mental and physical world might be difficult, since the way you employ concepts like "fighting" and "attack" blends these two worlds together so fluidly.

Secondly, they don't have any back up so what would that accomplish? It makes more sense to find out how the muslims operate so when they leave they can join their party and have a better chance of attack.

"Find out how the Muslims operate"? I thought Muslims were pretty open about how they operate....the five pillars, the Qu'ran, the hadith, scholarly opinions, Islamic websites, and loud call to prayer, wear the hijab, say "isa" and "pbuh" when appropriate, don't eat pork, etc. etc. I didn't realize the large, eye-catching mosques that even tourists are allowed to visit were secret headquarters.

Do Muslims have a weakness, like the Death Star? Are apostates like the Bothan spies, trying to steal your plans?

 

[Fatihah]

You are knocking down a straw man, I was using hyperbole.

Response: You are knocking down a strawman by claiming that I'm knocking down a strawman. And to accuse me of something you are guilty of is very hypocritical. I said quote any word or term I used that is synonymous to "psychopathic murderers" and you've failed to do so. So your own response is evidence that I've said no such thing.

Quote: Mr. Sprinkles
Meanwhile you ignored my basic points. For the record, here they are:

• You repeatedly bring up murder when no one said anything about murder; as if murder goes hand-in-hand with apostates (see post # 1072);
  
  Response: And yet again when I ask how is the statement that "apostates" are to be killed in an act of self-defense according to islam is not talking about apostates when the word "apostates" is clearly mentioned in the above statement, again you fail to give an answer.
  
  Quote: Mr. Sprinkles
• The glorious Islamic state you envision assumes certain people are guilty of plotting murder, because they are "gathered by the officers of the state...to be put to death" (your words), unless this is interrupted by them making a special plea for peace, and agreeing to a special contract which other people do not have to go through (see post # 904);
  
  Response:And yet again you add words to my arguement. Show me a word I've said in which I say that the glorious islamic state which I envision "assumes" certain people are guilty of plotting murder. Show me where I've said "assumes certain people are guilty of plotting murder", if you are truthful.
  
  Quote: Mr. Sprinkles
• You say the point is self-defense, but only certain people are treated this way; if it was really about self-defense, there would be a penalty for murderers, period; apostates would not be special in this regard;
  
  Response: There is a penalty for murder in islam.
  
  Quote: Mr. Sprinkles
• You talk about the "strategies" of people opposing Islam by converting and then becoming apostates, because somehow this helps them kill Muslims. (That sounds rather like something a psychopathic murderer would do, to me.) This is just the Islamic version of McCarthyism.
• In conclusion, the thinking you express on this issue is full of
  • paranoia,
  • prejudice,
  • bigotry,
  • inequality, and
  • lame excuses for state-sponsored threats and intimidation.

And, I should add, if you are worried about people who convert to Islam and then convert back, why do you make no distinction among apostates?

Response: Why would I?

Quote: Mr. Sprinkles
People like ayani or Kodanshi grew up Muslim. They didn't oppose Islam before they were born, and grow up Muslim as a strategy to get close to their own friends and family. They didn't move into a Muslim country, convert to Islam, then leave the country, as a spy might. Their change of heart and mind was not a getaway, unless you call being shunned by your own family a getaway.

For the record:
(Responding to keithnurse, who mentioned apostates, not killing.)
People can judge for themselves if my criticism of your argument has been fair or unfair.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. I realize you think there is an intrinsic connection between someone who changes their religion from Islam to something else, and the mysterious, tireless non-Muslim terrorists who are plotting to kill you. If you can claim this sinister connection without evidence, it can be dismissed without evidence.

Response: It has been well documented throughout the hadiths and qur'an about this tactic.

Mr. Sprinkles
How does changing their mind about religion help them get away in the physical world? How far away, ideologically, do they have to be from Islam so that they can "get away" but are still close enough to commit violence?

Response: I don't understand what you are asking.

 

[ProudMuslim]

It may surprise you Lava that many of his supporters are in fact Muslims,as for every Muslim toting a gun being an enemy,not true,the Afghan forces that fight alongside our Soldiers are very highly regarded comrades.

Yes but only because they are fighting on the side of Western forces. I think that's what .lava meant and i have to agree with her again.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Response: You are knocking down a strawman by claiming that I'm knocking down a strawman.

I don't think this statement means what you intended it to mean.

I said quote any word or term I used that is synonymous to "psychopathic murderers" and you've failed to do so. So your own response is evidence that I've said no such thing.

Well joining a religion and then leaving it so that you can kill people of that religion sounds like psychopathic murder to me, but as I said, I was using hyperbole. I concede that you did not use the exact words "psychopathic murderers". If I had intended to quote your exact words I would have used quotation marks.

Response:And yet again you add words to my arguement. Show me a word I've said in which I say that the glorious islamic state which I envision "assumes" certain people are guilty of plotting murder. Show me where I've said "assumes certain people are guilty of plotting murder", if you are truthful.

I quoted your words of post #904 in my previous post. Again, your words:

So let us hypothetically say that I am the head of a muslim country and I have come to learn that someone has in fact became an apostate. This person would be gathered by the officers of the state and will be summoned to be put to death. Why? Because one of the strategies of the opposition to muslims is to pretend to be a muslim, thereby abling them to get close to the muslims and know how they operate which would make it easier for them to attack the muslims.
-Fatihah, post #904
​

Feel free to elaborate all the non-assumptions underlying the thinking process which takes one from "I have come to learn that someone has....became [sic] an apostate" to gathering that person "by the officers of the state....to be put to death" in the name of self-defense.

Response: It has been well documented throughout the hadiths and qur'an about this tactic.

Okay but the hadiths and the Qu'ran are controversial in this context (we are debating Islam, half the people on this thread are non-Muslim and do not take the historicity of those scriptures as seriously as you do). And in any case, that was over one thousand years ago. Any cases in the modern era?

Response: I don't understand what you are asking.

You said:

No it would not make sense to attack when they are close to them because how would they get away?

Secondly, they don't have any back up so what would that accomplish? It makes more sense to find out how the muslims operate so when they leave [Islam] they can join their party and have a better chance of attack.
​

How does becoming an apostate help someone plotting to commit murder make their getaway, join their party, etc.? To make a getaway, or to join a terrorist group, I imagine you need to leave the country, get a fake passport, get some money, wear a disguise, hire a getaway driver...that is real evidence of potential wrongdoing. Apostacy is not. How is someone in a better position to "join their party...and attack" and then "get away" afterwards if they simply say they have changed their religion? In other words, they still live in the same house, they still have the same job, etc. They haven't physically gone anywhere.

 

[YmirGF]

How does becoming an apostate help someone plotting to commit murder make their getaway, join their party, etc.? To make a getaway, or to join a terrorist group, I imagine you need to leave the country, get a fake passport, get some money, wear a disguise, hire a getaway driver...that is real evidence of potential wrongdoing. Apostacy is not. How is someone in a better position to "join their party...and attack" and then "get away" afterwards if they simply say they have changed their religion? In other words, they still live in the same house, they still have the same job, etc. They haven't physically gone anywhere.

Sadly Mr. Spinkles, it is paranoid claptrap regardless of how it is sliced, imo.

 

[England my lionheart]

Yes but only because they are fighting on the side of Western forces. I think that's what .lava meant and i have to agree with her again.

Hi PM,well when most Muslims toting a Gun are aimed at (i hate the term) Westerners its hardly surprising we admire the Muslims who are on our side.
In Iran at the moment many thousands of unarmed Muslims dislike Gun toting Muslims for good reason.

 

[England my lionheart]

Sadly Mr. Spinkles, it is paranoid claptrap regardless of how it is sliced, imo.

Obviously the Freemasons are involved in a plot to sneak up on Islam pretending to be devout Muslims and gleaning all the secrets of Islam (are there any) to use in a diabolic attack,no,i agree Ymir,its paranoia.

 

[England my lionheart]

How bad can it get
TEHRAN, IRAN (BosNewsLife)-- As the world focuses on the political turmoil in Iran, two detained Christian women are "in danger of being forgotten" amid concerns they may face execution, Iranian Christians said Tuesday, July 7.

Marzieh Amirizadeh, 30, and Maryam Rustampoor, 27, have been held for over four months in Tehran's notorious Evin prison apparently for converting to Christianity from Islam.


Iranian Christians and rights investigators said the two young women, who were arrested March 5, suffered sleep deprivation as part of police interrogations and were held in solitary confinement for three weeks in May and early June.


Later, they were put together in one small cell for about two weeks before being moved to a larger area to make place for other inmates, including many protesters who were detained following last month's disputed presidential elections, said Christians with close knowledge about the situation.


About 600 women were reportedly brought to Evin prison during the protests.


EXECUTION PENDING?


There was still no clarity regarding the case of the two Christian women, Tuesday, July 7, with one judge reportedly telling them they were both to be executed as ‘apostates’. "Maryam and Marzieh have responded with courage, however, telling the judge to 'expedite his sentence'," said Pray for Iran, an Internet initiative of Iranian churches

 

[England my lionheart]

I thought it would be interesting to see some personal testimonies from Apostates:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/IRaza.htm

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE Mr Spinkles]


[/INDENT]How does becoming an apostate help someone plotting to commit murder make their getaway, join their party, etc.? To make a getaway, or to join a terrorist group, I imagine you need to leave the country, get a fake passport, get some money, wear a disguise, hire a getaway driver...that is real evidence of potential wrongdoing. Apostacy is not. How is someone in a better position to "join their party...and attack" and then "get away" afterwards if they simply say they have changed their religion?(End quote)

Response: They don't.

 

[keithnurse]

I thought it would be interesting to see some personal testimonies from Apostates:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Testimonials/IRaza.htm

Thanks for the link. www.faithfreedom.org is a wonderful enlightening website. It should be read by every Muslim on earth. I salute the brave former Muslims who have followed their consciences in the face of death threats from Muslims.

 

[twinmama]

The hadiths do not have authority over the qur'an. In other words, the hadiths can not have a law mentioned for islam that the qur'an does not./quote]

Okay, how come then muslims cut boys' genitals when Quran doesn't mention circumcision at all?

And regards to apostasy. Again people can debate over words in books and what is valid and what is not. But the reality is that apostates are treated horribly, there is no religious freedom and we are often talk about life and death situation. It is totaliarism and worst kind of theocracy.

So since people are mostly forced to be muslims there is no way knowing how many people actually would be muslims IF muslims would be granted the basic human right; Freedom of religion.

 

[Autodidact]

Response: We must first understand that the issue is apostacy. After an explaination, you can decide for yourself whether the individual should die.

A person who leaves islam and insists on staying in disbelief were never muslims to begin with. They were enemies of islam. If the muslim community allowed this practice, they would be easy target for their enemies which would cause havoc and destroy the unity between muslims and any individual muslim directedly involved. Therefore it is very necessary to put an end to such a practice by putting the apostates to death before they attempt to harm the muslims.

But if the apostates promise to give the muslims peace then they must enter into a peace treaty with the muslims and no harm will come to them unless the treaty is broken.

So let me get this. If a man is born a Muslim, and after years of thought comes to believe that there is no Allah or any other God, and decides is no longer a Muslim, how should other Muslims treat him?