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Apostates of Islam

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
"Let the be no compuslion in religion" i have heard this many times and this "If one among the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him so that he may hear the Word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure."[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
because if you only read this
[SIZE=-1]Sura 47.4 "When you encounter the unbelievers, Strike off their heads. Untill you have made a wide slaughter among them tie up the remaining captives."[/SIZE]
we are told its taken out of context ok fair enough but if we look at the case of Kareem Soliman the Egyptian Blogger who was jailed for criticising Islam and Al-Azhar Unerversity it is apparent that all Muslims are not reading from the same book.
Apostacy in Islam is punished,its a fact it is punishable by death and although Kareem was'nt killed he is in fear of his life as the authorities have said he is an Atheist.
This kind of thing is going on throughout the Islamic world,Egypt has two faces one Islamic and one secular and Kareem is being punished by both which is a worrying sign of a corrupt Government and Police force.
My question ,to Muslims especially,what are your views on Apostacy in Islam and should Kareem be punished for criticising Islam and being an Atheist? please be honest:)
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
These links might be helpful, England my Lionheart.

Egypt blogger jailed for 'insult'

Wikipedia

The Wiki article indicates that he was charged with the following "crimes".



Specifically, Kareem was charged with:
  • Atheism
  • Spreading information and malicious rumors that disrupt public security;
  • Defaming the president of Egypt;
  • Incitement to overthrow the regime based upon hatred and contempt ;
  • Incitement to hate "Islam" and to breach public peace standards; and
  • Highlighting inappropriate issues that harm the reputation of Egypt and spreading these publicly.
What I find deeply troubling here is that Atheism is listed as a crime.
What is up with that?
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
These links might be helpful, England my Lionheart.

Egypt blogger jailed for 'insult'

Wikipedia

The Wiki article indicates that he was charged with the following "crimes".




Specifically, Kareem was charged with:
  • Atheism
  • Spreading information and malicious rumors that disrupt public security;
  • Defaming the president of Egypt;
  • Incitement to overthrow the regime based upon hatred and contempt ;
  • Incitement to hate "Islam" and to breach public peace standards; and
  • Highlighting inappropriate issues that harm the reputation of Egypt and spreading these publicly.
What I find deeply troubling here is that Atheism is listed as a crime.
What is up with that?

Exactly,Atheism isn't a crime,what he said in a nutshell was Al-Azhar University is a school for terrorism and that Mubarak is a dictator,he was'nt the only one arrested but they released the others.
As you say,it is troubling that Atheism is listed as a crime so "let there be no compulsion in religion" does'nt seem to apply.
 

BucephalusBB

ABACABB
What I find deeply troubling here is that Atheism is listed as a crime.

What is up with that?
I wouldn't even know how to stop myself from being a criminal in that case. :eek:

I mean, I am one to follow the law. It's there for a reason, but how can I follow a law that wants to control my thoughts? :shrug:
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Things like this aren't confined to Muslim countries.
An artist in my own country is looking at jail time for hanging unflattering portraits of the Taoiseach (Prime Minister) in the national gallery
Police have interviewed the guerrilla artist and are preparing a file for the Director of Public Prosecutions. Mr Casby could be prosecuted for indecency, incitement to hatred and criminal damage - for hammering a nail into a wall of the National Gallery of Ireland. If convicted, he would face a heavy fine and possibly even a stint in jail.
Artist Conor Casby faces jail after Brian Cowen made unwitting model for toilet humour - Times Online
If this had happened in a Muslim country there'd be people complaining about it all over the place, citing it as another example of the oppressive nature of Islam. But it happened in a Western democracy so it's fine.
Governments everywhere are oppressive when it's in their interest to be so. Ask anyone who has had the misfortune to be in Abu Ghraib, or in this country Castlereagh BBC News | NORTHERN IRELAND | Interrogation centre had international reputation
 

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
"Let the be no compuslion in religion" i have heard this many times and this "If one among the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him so that he may hear the Word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure."[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
because if you only read this
[SIZE=-1]Sura 47.4 "When you encounter the unbelievers, Strike off their heads. Untill you have made a wide slaughter among them tie up the remaining captives."[/SIZE]
we are told its taken out of context ok fair enough but if we look at the case of Kareem Soliman the Egyptian Blogger who was jailed for criticising Islam and Al-Azhar Unerversity it is apparent that all Muslims are not reading from the same book.
Apostacy in Islam is punished,its a fact it is punishable by death and although Kareem was'nt killed he is in fear of his life as the authorities have said he is an Atheist.
This kind of thing is going on throughout the Islamic world,Egypt has two faces one Islamic and one secular and Kareem is being punished by both which is a worrying sign of a corrupt Government and Police force.
My question ,to Muslims especially,what are your views on Apostacy in Islam and should Kareem be punished for criticising Islam and being an Atheist? please be honest:)

Response: We must first understand that the issue is apostacy. After an explaination, you can decide for yourself whether the individual should die.

A person who leaves islam and insists on staying in disbelief were never muslims to begin with. They were enemies of islam. If the muslim community allowed this practice, they would be easy target for their enemies which would cause havoc and destroy the unity between muslims and any individual muslim directedly involved. Therefore it is very necessary to put an end to such a practice by putting the apostates to death before they attempt to harm the muslims.

But if the apostates promise to give the muslims peace then they must enter into a peace treaty with the muslims and no harm will come to them unless the treaty is broken.
 
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England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Things like this aren't confined to Muslim countries.
An artist in my own country is looking at jail time for hanging unflattering portraits of the Taoiseach (Prime Minister) in the national gallery
Artist Conor Casby faces jail after Brian Cowen made unwitting model for toilet humour - Times Online
If this had happened in a Muslim country there'd be people complaining about it all over the place, citing it as another example of the oppressive nature of Islam. But it happened in a Western democracy so it's fine.
Governments everywhere are oppressive when it's in their interest to be so. Ask anyone who has had the misfortune to be in Abu Ghraib, or in this country Castlereagh BBC News | NORTHERN IRELAND | Interrogation centre had international reputation

Kareem only recieved 1 year for calling the president a Dictator,however he recieved 3 years for criticising El-Azhar and Islam.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Response: We must first understand that the issue is apostacy. After an explaination, you can decide for yourself whether the individual should die.

A person who leaves islam and insists on staying in disbelief were never muslims to begin with. They were enemies of islam. If the muslim community allowed this practice, they would be easy target for their enemies which would cause havoc and destroy the unity between muslims and any individual muslim directedly involved. Therefore it is very necessary to put an end to such a practice by putting the apostates to death before they attempt to harm the muslims.

But if the apostates promise to give the muslims peace then they must enter into a peace treat with the muslims and no harm will come to them unless the treaty is broken.

Thanks for the reply,i did'nt expect many.
Nobody should die for their belief or non belief or speaking out against what they see as wrong,freedom of speech and thought is essential and as long as its not inciting violence and hatred its ok.
What we have here in Kareem is an angry young Man who had the courage of his convictions to speak out both against his religion and government,the fact that the bulk of his sentence was for insulting Islam speaks volumes.
 

Peace

Quran & Sunnah
Sura 47.4 "When you encounter the unbelievers, Strike off their heads. Untill you have made a wide slaughter among them tie up the remaining captives."
we are told its taken out of context ok fair enough but if we look at the case of

Would you be honest with yourself by goinging and reading the whole Quranic chapter from where you have taken that verse so as to understand it. That verse is the commad of God to Muslims while being at war.


My question ,to Muslims especially,what are your views on Apostacy in Islam and should Kareem be punished for criticising Islam and being an Atheist? please be honest:)


I agree with this taken from islamonline.net website.



Sheikh Ahmad Kutty said:
You have raised a very important question; it is something we need to address seriously, for it has been a source of much confusion not only among non-Muslims but also among Muslims in many quarters.

Like any Islamic issue, in order to find a satisfactory answer, we must study in a way that harmonizes the scripture and reason. This is the correct Qur’anic perspective that all believers must adopt in approaching any issue of religion. One of the most fundamental principles of the Qur’anic world view is that we must never allow ourselves to surrender our rationality and common sense in holding on to antiquated beliefs and practices, as was the case with the pagans in the pre-Islamic times. So let us reason about this in a manner that does justice to the sound teachings of Islam and our own sense of rationality and common sense.

Let us assume for a moment that most Muslims today (mind you there are over 1.5 billion Muslims out there) are simply holding on to their faith and failing to renounce it for fear of the death penalty. It looks absurd for anyone to hold such a view; it begs an answer for the following reasons:

1. Why did people embrace Islam in the early days when the faithful were subjected to all sorts of trials, tribulations, and persecutions? They were even forced to flee their homes and possessions in order to secure freedom of conscience to practice their religion of choice.

2. How do we explain the historical fact that in virtually all of the conquered territories such as Iraq, Syria, Iran, and Egypt, an enormous number of people entered Islam quite willingly even though they were allowed to remain as they were: Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, and so on?

3. The Spanish Inquisition instituted against the Muslims and the Jews is a historical fact. Why did many preferred to opt for expulsion or death instead of conversion to Christianity?

4. As the European historians have recorded, thousands and thousands of both Muslims and Jews were slaughtered by the Crusaders in the holy lands; the blood of the victims ran knee deep in the streets of the holy land. Why didn’t they choose to embrace Christianity in order to escape their miserable fate?

5. There are today over 1. 5 billion Muslims in the world coming as they are from diverse racial, ethnic, and religious backgrounds. We ought to ask ourselves: Why did such a huge mass of humanity embrace a faith which allegedly teaches such crude notions? Why did they forgo their allegedly superior beliefs and practices?

6. How do we explain the fact that Islam is still the fastest growing religion in the world in spite of the horrendously negative image of Islam and Muslims that is often projected?

7. Newspapers in Great Britain report that an increasingly large number of men and women are converting to Islam in Great Britain in spite of the extremely negative publicity against Islam. The irony is that the majority of those who embrace Islam are women, despite the fact that the media project them as the most disadvantaged in Islam. Whose sword is driving them to join the fold of Islam?

8. Finally, those who allege that Islam was spread through the sword may do well to read an excellent study on the spread of Islam by a former Christian missionary to India and a late professor of Islamic studies at Aligar Muslim University, namely Thomas Arnold; his work is entitled The Preaching of Islam.

Now coming to the false notion that everyone who leaves Islam is automatically killed, I can assure you that this was certainly not the case in many cases. Even though the penalty for treason was the death penalty (as was the case in the Law of Moses as well), there was no targeting of people who simply chose to leave Islam without any implication of treason. To simply kill anyone who chooses to follow a religion other than Islam is against the fundamental teachings of the Qur’an. Freedom of conscience is a fundamental principle of the Qur’an that is clearly stated in many Qur'anic verses. I list just a few:

[Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. So can you (Prophet) compel people to believe?] (Yunus 10: 99).

[Say, ‘Now the truth has come from your Lord: Let those who wish to believe in it do so, and let those who wish to reject it do so’] (Al-Kahf 17: 29).

[So (people) respond to your Lord before there comes a Day that cannot, against God’s will, be averted—you will have no refuge on that Day, and no possibility of denying (your sins). If they still turn away (remember that) We have not sent you (Prophet) to be their keeper: your duty is to deliver the message] (Ash-Shura 42: 47-48).

[There is no compulsion in religion: true guidance has become distinct from error, so whoever rejects false gods and believes in Allah has grasped the firmest hand-hold, one that will never break. Allah is all hearing and all knowing] (Al-Baqrah 2: 256).

 
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Peace

Quran & Sunnah
And I agree with this:

taken from islamonline.net
Shahul Hameed said:
Actually, there is a lot of confusion about this issue of apostasy. As you have noted, the Noble Qur'an does not prescribe death penalty for deserters of Islam, but rather states that they would be in Hell in the hereafter (2:217).
Here is a verse that directly refers to people who abandon their faith after accepting it. It says what means:
*{But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have [of set purpose] gone astray.}* (Aal-`Imran 3:90)
As you can see, there is no mention here of the death penalty for the deserters.
But there are Muslim scholars of respected opinions who believe in the death penalty for apostates because of hadiths that mention it. If we study the context of these hadiths, we can see that the ruling was with reference to certain specific cases of miscreants who wished to undermine Islam, by joining Islam first and then deserting it. This is mentioned in the following verse that says what means:
*{A section of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] say: "Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers [Muslims], but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may [themselves] turn back [from Islam]."}* (Aal `Imran 3:72)
In order to protect Islam from such malicious attempts to subvert it, the Prophet ordered the death penalty for such people. This indeed was a drastic step adopted by the Prophet to ensure the solidarity of the nascent Muslim community in those days. If it had been a general ruling applicable for all occasions, this would have been stated in the Qur'an because it is a life-and-death question that affects the very fabric of Islam most seriously. On the other hand, read the verse that says what means:
*{Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed [to God's will] in Islam. Leave them alone to enjoy [the good things of this life] and to please themselves: let [false] hope amuse them: soon will knowledge [undeceive them].}* (Al-Hijr 15:2-3)
This verse clearly indicates that the disbelievers should be left alone. Moreover, the killing of apostates would undermine the freedom of will Allah has bestowed on each human, as is made clear in the verses that say what means:
*{If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! Wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]}*
Shahul Hameed said:
(Yunus 10:99-100)
[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica]*{Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject [it]: for the wrong doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a dwelling (resting place)!"}* (Al-Kahf 18:29)[/FONT]
*{Let there be no compulsion in religion: truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:256)
The verses quoted above are categorical that complete freedom of will is a condition for sincere and wholehearted submission to Allah Almighty, and no force should be used in this regard. This is because coercion does not go along with freedom of choice.
In addition, we may consider another verse, too, which says what means:
*{Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe [again] and [again] reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief, — Allah will not forgive them nor guide them on the way.}* (An-Nisaa' 4:137)
The example of a person who vacillates between Islam and disbelief is cited here. Note the expression: *{believe, then reject faith, then believe [again] and [again] reject faith}*.
How can we imagine a person becoming a Muslim a second time, after rejecting faith once, IF he is to be killed after his rejection? The significance of this verse is one of free choice; though one is expected to be responsible in the use of that choice.
Thus we see that the general teaching of the Qur'an is one of freedom of choice and mercy. And if we are to adopt the death penalty for apostates today, the first problem is the absence of a true Islamic system (even in the so-called Islamic countries) to judge apostasy and to enforce the punishment where it is due. Second, there are scholars of respected opinions who doubt whether death is the due punishment now. Third, we need to question the emphasis on punishments rather than on peaceful and diplomatic means of promoting the Islamic ideal. Which is prior to what, in which case, should be judged only by true correct and wise Muslim scholars.
[/FONT]
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Would you be honest with yourself by goinging and reading the whole Quranic chapter from where you have taken that verse so as to understand it. That verse is the commad of God to Muslims while being at war.





I agree with this taken from islamonline.net website.




I thought i was being honest
Sura 47.4 "When you encounter the unbelievers, Strike off their heads. Untill you have made a wide slaughter among them tie up the remaining captives."
we are told its taken out of context ok fair enough

and yes i understand it,it is not i who is confused,it is the 600 million Muslims who think that the Hadiths of Apostacy are relevant today,hence Kareems predicament and many others and he does'nt live in an Islamic state,well officially its not.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
And I agree with this:

taken from islamonline.net

This is all well and good but finding a well respected Scholar that all Muslims agree on is like sifting through the Hadiths and finding one that all Muslims agree on not only its authenticity but its meaning.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
If no scholars agree, then how they can considered to be scholars or learned?

I seemed to recall that one Muslim in RF in another topic that they don't make mistake. In an ideal world, I suppose that they don't make mistakes, but in the real world they are as humans as anyone else.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Things like this aren't confined to Muslim countries.
An artist in my own country is looking at jail time for hanging unflattering portraits of the Taoiseach (Prime Minister) in the national gallery
Artist Conor Casby faces jail after Brian Cowen made unwitting model for toilet humour - Times Online

Very funny and i hope common sense prevails here
If this had happened in a Muslim country there'd be people complaining about it all over the place, citing it as another example of the oppressive nature of Islam. But it happened in a Western democracy so it's fine.

Let me put it this way, if i had to carry out such a prank i think i would pick the emererald isle rather than Saudi.
Governments everywhere are oppressive when it's in their interest to be so. Ask anyone who has had the misfortune to be in Abu Ghraib, or in this country Castlereagh BBC News | NORTHERN IRELAND | Interrogation centre had international reputation

Castlereagh is a part and parcel a greater darkness which is lifting from Ireland Stephen. Brutal times produce brutal men who flourish in ther own deluded roles of authority.
A piece of a black jigsaw you might say.
 
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