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Any Arguments by which to Conclude that Consciousness Is a Product of Brains?

Nous

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
idav said:
No I gave you plenty of citations on those aspects of the brain.
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What "aspects of the brain" are you talking about? How do brains have complex, coherent experiences, form memories, engage in logical thought processes and have veridical perceptions not acquired through the sense organs during clinical death?

And again, I haven't seen any argument on this thread that concludes that the various phenomena of consciousness are created by something happening in brains. Quote the argument with that conclusion that you claim you made.
 
E

Evie

Active Member
Nous said:
I'd say that a creature referring to “scientifically proving” the existence of something has adequately established the existence of consciousness.

Pondering the question of whether consciousness exists can only be done if consciousness does exist.

Most every human who can speak reports having beliefs and intentions, reports having engaged or planning to engage in willful actions; reports knowing something to be true; speaks of an “I”. How does one account for this universal experience (or these universal experiences) except as a product of consciousness? If people are deluded about--have false beliefs about--having beliefs, intentions, willful actions, awareness and knowledge of things and the self, then such delusions still just prove the existence of consciousness.

Lots of scientists during the past century have denied the thesis of determinism. My impression is that most physicists of the past century do not accept the thesis of determinism.

Moreover, I don't recall any scientist or philosopher claiming that the thesis of determinism implies that “consciousness is a fallacy”.

What does the phrase "consciousness is a fallacy" even mean? "Fallacy" means:

1. a deceptive, misleading, or false notion, belief, etc.:
That the world is flat was at one time a popular fallacy.
2. a misleading or unsound argument.
3. deceptive, misleading, or false nature; erroneousness.
4. Logic. any of various types of erroneous reasoning that render arguments logically unsound.​

the definition of fallacy

All of these definitions of "fallacy" imply the existence of a faculty that can be deceived, have a false belief, engage in erroneous reasoning, etc.
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could that faculty be the human mind?
 
E

Evie

Active Member
co
Nous said:
I'd say that a creature referring to “scientifically proving” the existence of something has adequately established the existence of consciousness.

Pondering the question of whether consciousness exists can only be done if consciousness does exist.

Most every human who can speak reports having beliefs and intentions, reports having engaged or planning to engage in willful actions; reports knowing something to be true; speaks of an “I”. How does one account for this universal experience (or these universal experiences) except as a product of consciousness? If people are deluded about--have false beliefs about--having beliefs, intentions, willful actions, awareness and knowledge of things and the self, then such delusions still just prove the existence of consciousness.

Lots of scientists during the past century have denied the thesis of determinism. My impression is that most physicists of the past century do not accept the thesis of determinism.

Moreover, I don't recall any scientist or philosopher claiming that the thesis of determinism implies that “consciousness is a fallacy”.

What does the phrase "consciousness is a fallacy" even mean? "Fallacy" means:

1. a deceptive, misleading, or false notion, belief, etc.:
That the world is flat was at one time a popular fallacy.
2. a misleading or unsound argument.
3. deceptive, misleading, or false nature; erroneousness.
4. Logic. any of various types of erroneous reasoning that render arguments logically unsound.​

the definition of fallacy

All of these definitions of "fallacy" imply the existence of a faculty that can be deceived, have a false belief, engage in erroneous reasoning, etc.
Click to expand...
Could that faculty be the human mind?
 
psychoslice

psychoslice

Veteran Member
George-ananda said:
How do you explain paranormal entities having consciousness? (I'm guessing your answer as 'no such thing'.)

I think the brain is only required for physical entities.
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Yes the brain is required for physical entities, and what is a paranormal entity, what is beyond normal ?.
 
E

Evie

Active Member
psychoslice said:
Yes the brain is required for physical entities, and what is a paranormal entity, what is beyond normal ?.
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Supernatural. However, technology can cause something to 'appear' a supernatural phenomenon. And many will believe because of an inner need or desire to believe.
 
psychoslice

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Evie said:
Supernatural. However, technology can cause something to 'appear' a supernatural phenomenon. And many will believe because of an inner need or desire to believe.
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Yes that is true, its all about believing, but believing doesn't make it so.
 
psychoslice

psychoslice

Veteran Member
George-ananda said:
OK.... but I wasn't talking about proof, but rather what the 'beyond the normal' would be.
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yes I see, I suppose there must be a lot beyond our senses, or that what we can perceive, but for me personally its just a guess, how could we ever know if its beyond our perception, but maybe one day we might ?.
 
George-ananda

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
psychoslice said:
yes I see, I suppose there must be a lot beyond our senses, or that what we can perceive, but for me personally its just a guess, how could we ever know if its beyond our perception, but maybe one day we might ?.
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I think the effects of that which is beyond our senses can be seen in paranormal phenomena. Also I believe there are gifted individuals that certainly do perceive things beyond the physical senses.
 
SpiritQuest

SpiritQuest

The Immortal Man
Evangelicalhumanist said:
This is what Daniel Dennett would call a "deepity."

A deepity is a proposition that seems to be profound because it is actually logically ill-formed. It has (at least) two readings and balances precariously between them. On one reading it is true but trivial. And on another reading it is false, but would be earth-shattering if true.
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Some people could think that it is a deepity, other people might not think that.

Consciousness is the final frontier...

Synopsis: The exploration of inner space, our own consciousness, is ultimately connected to our discovery of outer space. Just as the world becomes a smaller place with increase in communication and transport technology, so the universe becomes a smaller place with the increase in meditation technology!
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Is Your Brain Really a Computer, or Is It a Quantum Orchestra? | The Huffington Post

Actually, the brain is looking more like an orchestra, a multi-scalar vibrational resonance system, than a computer. Brain information patterns repeat over spatiotemporal scales in fractal-like, nested hierarchies of neuronal networks, with resonances and interference beats.
Click to expand...
 
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psychoslice

psychoslice

Veteran Member
George-ananda said:
I think the effects of that which is beyond our senses can be seen in paranormal phenomena. Also I believe there are gifted individuals that certainly do perceive things beyond the physical senses.
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Yes i believe when one experiences Enlightenment, that they experience what is beyond the mind, but the experience itself is not that which is beyond, its secondary to that. I myself have had this experience, its hard to put into words, because what you experience is beyond anything we can ever dream of as a sentient being, and so we only have the experience to talk about, nd again that is not that which is beyond, its just talk.
 
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