1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Animals, spirit world in Baha'i

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Meandflower, Jan 23, 2021.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,879
    Ratings:
    +6,540
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    But Abdu'l-Baha was not given the authority to change or add to anything Baha'u'llah wrote, which he did.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,879
    Ratings:
    +6,540
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    What Baha'u'llah wrote is subject to interpretation, as I always say to Christians regarding what the Bible means, and as I say to the Jews regarding what the Torah means. ;)

    Baha'is who insist they know what the Baha'i Writings mean and they cannot be wrong are no different from any other religious believers who insist they know the meanings of their scriptures.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,879
    Ratings:
    +6,540
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    All of these are personal beliefs and they are not even in the Writings. You are free to hold these beliefs just as I am free to hold my beliefs. Many Baha's I know believe that animals have an afterlife, and they are reading the same Writings you are reading. I find this rather comical because it is just like different Christians reading the same Bible yet believing different things. :D

    Another thing you might not know is that whether animals have an afterlife or not is not about me, it is about the animals.
    It is not as if I believe I will see my cats over the Rainbow Bridge, like many grieving pet owners believe.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    19,711
    Ratings:
    +6,727
    Religion:
    deist
    I don't think that Bahais acknowledge Spirits or Spiritualists who are aware of Spirits.
    The whole issue of Bahai and Spiritualism is strange to me.
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,879
    Ratings:
    +6,540
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    What do you mean by strange? Do you mean you think it is strange that Baha'is don't acknowledge Spirits or Spiritualists?
    But I am a Baha'i and I acknowledge them.
     
  6. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    12,605
    Ratings:
    +5,754
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    The thought here Susan is that Abdul'baha knew the Essence of all of what Baha'u'llah offered.

    He did not change what Baha'u'llah wrote and spoke of from God, he explained it to us.

    From an early age, Baha’u’llah tasked Abdul'baha to write replies for Him.

    There is much offered on this Susan. We are told if we want to be a Baha'i, then be as Abdul'baha was.

    Regards Tony
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  7. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    12,605
    Ratings:
    +5,754
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    With the Covernant, Baha’u’llah made it very clear.

    There is much guidance on that topic, it is off topic in this thread.

    Regards Tony
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,879
    Ratings:
    +6,540
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    About as clear as mud, but you are right, it is off topic for this thread.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,879
    Ratings:
    +6,540
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    "We are told..." In that case, maybe I do not want to be a Baha'i, but I do not think it is that simple. Religious believers want to make everything so simple, it is easier that way, but life is not as simple as 1 + 1 = 2.

    I have never been a "good Baha'i" but I assure you it had nothing to do with Abdu'l-Baha. I have bigger fish to fry with the Man upstairs, and trying to be like Abdu'l-Baha won't help me with that.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  10. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    12,605
    Ratings:
    +5,754
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    This spoiler is worth considering Susan, life is a challenge that is for sure. Our pets can help us find some peace. My wife can not live without them, as many as she could fit in a house, if she could.

    " …Render thanks unto God, O people, for His appearance; for verily He is the most great Favor unto you, the most perfect bounty upon you; and through Him every mouldering bone is quickened. Whoso turneth towards Him hath turned towards God, and whoso turneth away from Him hath turned away from My beauty, hath repudiated My Proof, and transgressed against Me. He is the Trust of God amongst you, His charge within you, His manifestation unto you and His appearance among His favored servants… We have sent Him down in the form of a human temple. Blest and sanctified be God Who createth whatsoever He willeth through His inviolable, His infallible decree. They who deprive themselves of the shadow of the Branch, are lost in the wilderness of error, are consumed by the heat of worldly desires, and are of those who will assuredly perish.”

    All these writings are to help us understand what it is to be a animal with the full potential of an everlasting spirit. The journey of life.

    Regards Tony
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,879
    Ratings:
    +6,540
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    This has nothing to do with my cats so please leave them out it it. Abdu'l-Baha has said much worse things that have caused me extreme anguish, until I finally realized I do not have to believe them, and I finally broke free of them a few months ago with the help of some kind people on this forum. That is when my life started to turn around because I stopped blaming God for what was not His fault.

    If you are trying to drive me away from the Baha'i Faith, and from Baha'u'llah, you could not have done a better job. The only reason I still believe in Baha'u'llah is because of all the the evidence that shows that He has to be a Manifestation of God, the return of Christ and the Messiah, not because I want to be a Baha'i. You see, I cannot deny the Truth, but I don't have to like it. If God wants to punish me for that so be it.

    But I know you feel it is for my own good, just like Christians believe that threatening people with hell is for their own good...
    Using Baha'u'llah to try to force me to like Abdu'l-Baha won't work, it will only drive me further away from the Faith.

    As for assuredly perishing, there is nothing I want more, so God would be doing me a favor. I have no desire to go to the Abha Kingdom and live forever, I just want to be dead forever.
     
  12. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2020
    Messages:
    714
    Ratings:
    +238
    Compassionately, many Christians tell their little children that Fluffy will be in heaven, with every good kitten toy, waiting for them to join them in heaven in the distant future (old age) when they ascend to heaven. This is a little white lie to a kid so the kid won't cry.

    The Christian bible has many verses about dogs, which describe them as filthy animals that will not ascend to heaven.

    In the old days, animals were working animals (bark to alarm the village, herd sheep, etc). Now, pets are beloved members of our household. Some would rather spend time with Fluffy than dreaded Aunt Mildred. However, this doesn't affect pet acceptance to heaven.

    Trailblazer mentioned that souls are energy and energy is neither created nor destroyed, but continues to exist forever. I believe that souls are made of psychic energy, and have the ability to transcend time and penetrate any material. In fact, souls are able to penetrate any material except the vortexes of psychic energy that surround heaven (keeps psychic energy out) and hell (painfully keeps psychic energy in). Gravity doesn't seem to have an effect on psychic energy, but time dilates at relativistic speeds and in strong gravitational fields, according to the laws of relativity; hence time slows for God which makes the universe 6,000 years old in God's years and 13.8 billion years old in human years. However, there is nothing to suggest that animals have souls (so they might not possess souls). One might ponder why pets sometimes sense quakes in advance (perhaps they hear micro-fractures before a quake?).

    I think that souls are only put into humans because only they have minds capable of using them to fullest capacity.

    However, there are many religions that believe in reincarnation, and they often speak of animal spirit guides (some are delicious and nutritious....so not a good idea for everyone to seek out theirs).

    Dog passages of the bible: Proverbs 26.11, Exodus 11:7, Exodus 22.31, Judges 7.6, 1 Samuel 17:43, 1Samuel 24:14, 2 Samuel 3.8, 2Samuel 9.8, 2Samuel 16:9, 1Kings 14:11, 1Kings 16:4, 1Kings 21:19, 1Kings 21:23, 1Kings 21:24, 1Kings 22:38 (They washed the chariot at a pool in Samaria (where the prostitutes bathed), and the dogs licked up his blood, as the word of the Lord had declared)., 2Kings 8:13 2Kings 9:10, 2Kings 9:36, Job 18:11, Job 30:1, Psalm 22:16, Psalm 22:20, Psalm 59:6, Psalm 59:14, Psalm 68:23 (that your feet may wade in the blood of your foes, while the tongues of your dogs have their share)."

    Do Dogs Go to Heaven?

    Link above: "Heaven is for those who are saved."..."God created animals to be ruled over by humans. Animals are a gift and responsibility for men to steward, they aren’t equals to men in the eyes of God."

    Of course, this opinion doesn't seem to be consistent with the idea of evolution (animals are not created for mankind, but, rather, mankind is descended from apes).

    Link above shows that Isaiah 11:11 "The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them." I don't know if this is a description of heaven. If so, it is possible that animals can get into heaven.

    From the opera Pocahontas: "have you ever heard the wolf cry to the blue corn moon, or asked the grinning bobcat why he grins" (my theory is that the bobcat ate the wolf...grin...burp).
     
  13. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    19,711
    Ratings:
    +6,727
    Religion:
    deist
    I just meant what I wrote.
    Do you think that Baha'i does acknowledge Spiritualists?
    What does Bahauallah say?
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,879
    Ratings:
    +6,540
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I do not recall Baha'u'llah saying anything about them but Abdu'l-Baha said we should avoid them.
    Sorry, it is late so I cannot find the quote right now.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  15. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    12,605
    Ratings:
    +5,754
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    All the best Susan and that is all I will ever offer you, the best in life and faith.

    Love to all, Regards Tony
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,767
    Ratings:
    +7,644
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    There are a lot of different beliefs concerning life after death for humans and animals. The truth is that there is no life after death taught in either Jewish or Christian scripture. The ancient Jews believed in a future physical resurrection when the Messiah brought his Kingdom rule to this earth.....but that got mangled as influences from outside Judaism infiltrated Jewish thinking. Sheol was originally just the grave, (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) but men in later times turned it into some kind of sinister underworld of the dead.

    Solomon wrote...."for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust." (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

    Understanding the difference between "soul" and "spirit" in the original languages of the Bible, allows us to have a clearer picture.

    All living breathing creatures are called "souls" in the Bible, both man and animal. This word never refers to a disembodied spirit. It is the creature itself whilst it lives and breathes.

    The word "spirit" refers to the breath than animates all breathing creatures, as well as "spirit" beings (angels) and the "spirit" in humans and animals that gives them personality traits....and God's holy spirit. It is a word with many meanings, but all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.

    When you understand that the notion of an invisible conscious part of man that separates from the body at death was never taught by God or Christ in any part of scripture, you then understand that this notion has no place in our beliefs. The soul is us. Adam was not "given" a soul but "became" one when God started him breathing.
    The spirit is what animates us, and when we breathe our last breath, the soul dies. (Ezekiel 18:4 Psalm 146:4)

    Animals and man have the same destination....both return to the dust. Man however is promised a resurrection (a restoration of life here on earth where God put us in the first place) but animals are given no such promise.

    Sentimentality is not a substitute for the truth.....and the truth is, God never designed animals to live forever....but he did purpose for humans to keep living so as to be constant caretakers of his earth, given his qualities and attributes, so as to fulfill that assignment as God willed.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    19,711
    Ratings:
    +6,727
    Religion:
    deist
    No problem.
    I thought that most Bahais are indeed prejudiced against Spiritualism and that could be why.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  18. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    2,513
    Ratings:
    +393
    Religion:
    Christian
    Yes Eccles 3:21 is interesting considering God does know. I see it as showing how Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon. He seems to state a lot of things from the pov of what we can see and cannot see.
     
  19. Meandflower

    Meandflower Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2020
    Messages:
    833
    Ratings:
    +602
    Religion:
    Monotheist
    How do you know animals have no such capacity? I know animals are capable of reflecting God's light. Animals are much more like us than we think. Animals is also God's creations. God love animals. Of course can animals travel trough the world's of God
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  20. Meandflower

    Meandflower Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2020
    Messages:
    833
    Ratings:
    +602
    Religion:
    Monotheist
    How do you know animals have no such capacity? I know animals are capable of reflecting God's light. Animals are much more like us than we think. Animals is also God's creations. God love animals. Of course can animals travel trough the world's of God
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
Loading...