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Animals, spirit world in Baha'i

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You are free to express those views Susan. I can only offer, that to say that "Neither the UHJ nor Abdu'l-Baha has the right to speak as the Voice of God, as only the Manifestations of God have that authority", is a view not backed up in any way by Baha'u'llah.
What Baha'u'llah wrote is subject to interpretation, as I always say to Christians regarding what the Bible means, and as I say to the Jews regarding what the Torah means. ;)

Baha'is who insist they know what the Baha'i Writings mean and they cannot be wrong are no different from any other religious believers who insist they know the meanings of their scriptures.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But all this is taking us away from a topic that is dear to you. Personally I am happy that all the animals I have owned and loved are part of me and that I will take the attributes they shared with me, on my journey in the life to come.

It helps to read what Abdul'baha has said about the care of animals, when we read that advice, we can see that it is us that learns from the animal, we learn from their given attributes. A dog is loyal, courageous, patient, a cat can be caring, loving, playful, curious, adventurous, to name a few.

They do not die, they live on in us and we get to choose if we live on in God.
All of these are personal beliefs and they are not even in the Writings. You are free to hold these beliefs just as I am free to hold my beliefs. Many Baha's I know believe that animals have an afterlife, and they are reading the same Writings you are reading. I find this rather comical because it is just like different Christians reading the same Bible yet believing different things. :D

Another thing you might not know is that whether animals have an afterlife or not is not about me, it is about the animals.
It is not as if I believe I will see my cats over the Rainbow Bridge, like many grieving pet owners believe.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I don't think that Bahais acknowledge Spirits or Spiritualists who are aware of Spirits.
The whole issue of Bahai and Spiritualism is strange to me.
What do you mean by strange? Do you mean you think it is strange that Baha'is don't acknowledge Spirits or Spiritualists?
But I am a Baha'i and I acknowledge them.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But Abdu'l-Baha was not given the authority to change or add to anything Baha'u'llah wrote, which he did.

The thought here Susan is that Abdul'baha knew the Essence of all of what Baha'u'llah offered.

He did not change what Baha'u'llah wrote and spoke of from God, he explained it to us.

From an early age, Baha’u’llah tasked Abdul'baha to write replies for Him.

There is much offered on this Susan. We are told if we want to be a Baha'i, then be as Abdul'baha was.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What Baha'u'llah wrote is subject to interpretation, as I always say to Christians regarding what the Bible means, and as I say to the Jews regarding what the Torah means. ;)

Baha'is who insist they know what the Baha'i Writings mean and they cannot be wrong are no different from any other religious believers who insist they know the meanings of their scriptures.

With the Covernant, Baha’u’llah made it very clear.

There is much guidance on that topic, it is off topic in this thread.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
We are told if we want to be a Baha'i, then be as Abdul'baha was.
"We are told..." In that case, maybe I do not want to be a Baha'i, but I do not think it is that simple. Religious believers want to make everything so simple, it is easier that way, but life is not as simple as 1 + 1 = 2.

I have never been a "good Baha'i" but I assure you it had nothing to do with Abdu'l-Baha. I have bigger fish to fry with the Man upstairs, and trying to be like Abdu'l-Baha won't help me with that.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
About as clear as mud, but you are right, it is off topic for this thread.

This spoiler is worth considering Susan, life is a challenge that is for sure. Our pets can help us find some peace. My wife can not live without them, as many as she could fit in a house, if she could.

" …Render thanks unto God, O people, for His appearance; for verily He is the most great Favor unto you, the most perfect bounty upon you; and through Him every mouldering bone is quickened. Whoso turneth towards Him hath turned towards God, and whoso turneth away from Him hath turned away from My beauty, hath repudiated My Proof, and transgressed against Me. He is the Trust of God amongst you, His charge within you, His manifestation unto you and His appearance among His favored servants… We have sent Him down in the form of a human temple. Blest and sanctified be God Who createth whatsoever He willeth through His inviolable, His infallible decree. They who deprive themselves of the shadow of the Branch, are lost in the wilderness of error, are consumed by the heat of worldly desires, and are of those who will assuredly perish.”

All these writings are to help us understand what it is to be a animal with the full potential of an everlasting spirit. The journey of life.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
This spoiler is worth considering Susan, life is a challenge that is for sure. Our pets can help us find some peace. My wife can not live without them, as many as she could fit in a house, if she could.

" …Render thanks unto God, O people, for His appearance; for verily He is the most great Favor unto you, the most perfect bounty upon you; and through Him every mouldering bone is quickened. Whoso turneth towards Him hath turned towards God, and whoso turneth away from Him hath turned away from My beauty, hath repudiated My Proof, and transgressed against Me. He is the Trust of God amongst you, His charge within you, His manifestation unto you and His appearance among His favored servants… We have sent Him down in the form of a human temple. Blest and sanctified be God Who createth whatsoever He willeth through His inviolable, His infallible decree. They who deprive themselves of the shadow of the Branch, are lost in the wilderness of error, are consumed by the heat of worldly desires, and are of those who will assuredly perish.”

All these writings are to help us understand what it is to be a animal with the full potential of an everlasting spirit. The journey of life.

Regards Tony
This has nothing to do with my cats so please leave them out it it. Abdu'l-Baha has said much worse things that have caused me extreme anguish, until I finally realized I do not have to believe them, and I finally broke free of them a few months ago with the help of some kind people on this forum. That is when my life started to turn around because I stopped blaming God for what was not His fault.

If you are trying to drive me away from the Baha'i Faith, and from Baha'u'llah, you could not have done a better job. The only reason I still believe in Baha'u'llah is because of all the the evidence that shows that He has to be a Manifestation of God, the return of Christ and the Messiah, not because I want to be a Baha'i. You see, I cannot deny the Truth, but I don't have to like it. If God wants to punish me for that so be it.

But I know you feel it is for my own good, just like Christians believe that threatening people with hell is for their own good...
Using Baha'u'llah to try to force me to like Abdu'l-Baha won't work, it will only drive me further away from the Faith.

As for assuredly perishing, there is nothing I want more, so God would be doing me a favor. I have no desire to go to the Abha Kingdom and live forever, I just want to be dead forever.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
Compassionately, many Christians tell their little children that Fluffy will be in heaven, with every good kitten toy, waiting for them to join them in heaven in the distant future (old age) when they ascend to heaven. This is a little white lie to a kid so the kid won't cry.

The Christian bible has many verses about dogs, which describe them as filthy animals that will not ascend to heaven.

In the old days, animals were working animals (bark to alarm the village, herd sheep, etc). Now, pets are beloved members of our household. Some would rather spend time with Fluffy than dreaded Aunt Mildred. However, this doesn't affect pet acceptance to heaven.

Trailblazer mentioned that souls are energy and energy is neither created nor destroyed, but continues to exist forever. I believe that souls are made of psychic energy, and have the ability to transcend time and penetrate any material. In fact, souls are able to penetrate any material except the vortexes of psychic energy that surround heaven (keeps psychic energy out) and hell (painfully keeps psychic energy in). Gravity doesn't seem to have an effect on psychic energy, but time dilates at relativistic speeds and in strong gravitational fields, according to the laws of relativity; hence time slows for God which makes the universe 6,000 years old in God's years and 13.8 billion years old in human years. However, there is nothing to suggest that animals have souls (so they might not possess souls). One might ponder why pets sometimes sense quakes in advance (perhaps they hear micro-fractures before a quake?).

I think that souls are only put into humans because only they have minds capable of using them to fullest capacity.

However, there are many religions that believe in reincarnation, and they often speak of animal spirit guides (some are delicious and nutritious....so not a good idea for everyone to seek out theirs).

Dog passages of the bible: Proverbs 26.11, Exodus 11:7, Exodus 22.31, Judges 7.6, 1 Samuel 17:43, 1Samuel 24:14, 2 Samuel 3.8, 2Samuel 9.8, 2Samuel 16:9, 1Kings 14:11, 1Kings 16:4, 1Kings 21:19, 1Kings 21:23, 1Kings 21:24, 1Kings 22:38 (They washed the chariot at a pool in Samaria (where the prostitutes bathed), and the dogs licked up his blood, as the word of the Lord had declared)., 2Kings 8:13 2Kings 9:10, 2Kings 9:36, Job 18:11, Job 30:1, Psalm 22:16, Psalm 22:20, Psalm 59:6, Psalm 59:14, Psalm 68:23 (that your feet may wade in the blood of your foes, while the tongues of your dogs have their share)."

Do Dogs Go to Heaven?

Link above: "Heaven is for those who are saved."..."God created animals to be ruled over by humans. Animals are a gift and responsibility for men to steward, they aren’t equals to men in the eyes of God."

Of course, this opinion doesn't seem to be consistent with the idea of evolution (animals are not created for mankind, but, rather, mankind is descended from apes).

Link above shows that Isaiah 11:11 "The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them." I don't know if this is a description of heaven. If so, it is possible that animals can get into heaven.

From the opera Pocahontas: "have you ever heard the wolf cry to the blue corn moon, or asked the grinning bobcat why he grins" (my theory is that the bobcat ate the wolf...grin...burp).
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
What do you mean by strange? Do you mean you think it is strange that Baha'is don't acknowledge Spirits or Spiritualists?
But I am a Baha'i and I acknowledge them.
I just meant what I wrote.
Do you think that Baha'i does acknowledge Spiritualists?
What does Bahauallah say?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I just meant what I wrote.
Do you think that Baha'i does acknowledge Spiritualists?
What does Bahauallah say?
I do not recall Baha'u'llah saying anything about them but Abdu'l-Baha said we should avoid them.
Sorry, it is late so I cannot find the quote right now.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This has nothing to do with my cats so please leave them out it it. Abdu'l-Baha has said much worse things that have caused me extreme anguish, until I finally realized I do not have to believe them, and I finally broke free of them a few months ago with the help of some kind people on this forum. That is when my life started to turn around because I stopped blaming God for what was not His fault.

If you are trying to drive me away from the Baha'i Faith, and from Baha'u'llah, you could not have done a better job. The only reason I still believe in Baha'u'llah is because of all the the evidence that shows that He has to be a Manifestation of God, the return of Christ and the Messiah, not because I want to be a Baha'i. You see, I cannot deny the Truth, but I don't have to like it. If God wants to punish me for that so be it.

But I know you feel it is for my own good, just like Christians believe that threatening people with hell is for their own good...
Using Baha'u'llah to try to force me to like Abdu'l-Baha won't work, it will only drive me further away from the Faith.

As for assuredly perishing, there is nothing I want more, so God would be doing me a favor. I have no desire to go to the Abha Kingdom and live forever, I just want to be dead forever.

All the best Susan and that is all I will ever offer you, the best in life and faith.

Love to all, Regards Tony
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I do not know what the christian Bible say about it. But I know many christians believe animals do have a afterlife

There are a lot of different beliefs concerning life after death for humans and animals. The truth is that there is no life after death taught in either Jewish or Christian scripture. The ancient Jews believed in a future physical resurrection when the Messiah brought his Kingdom rule to this earth.....but that got mangled as influences from outside Judaism infiltrated Jewish thinking. Sheol was originally just the grave, (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) but men in later times turned it into some kind of sinister underworld of the dead.

Solomon wrote...."for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust." (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

Understanding the difference between "soul" and "spirit" in the original languages of the Bible, allows us to have a clearer picture.

All living breathing creatures are called "souls" in the Bible, both man and animal. This word never refers to a disembodied spirit. It is the creature itself whilst it lives and breathes.

The word "spirit" refers to the breath than animates all breathing creatures, as well as "spirit" beings (angels) and the "spirit" in humans and animals that gives them personality traits....and God's holy spirit. It is a word with many meanings, but all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.

When you understand that the notion of an invisible conscious part of man that separates from the body at death was never taught by God or Christ in any part of scripture, you then understand that this notion has no place in our beliefs. The soul is us. Adam was not "given" a soul but "became" one when God started him breathing.
The spirit is what animates us, and when we breathe our last breath, the soul dies. (Ezekiel 18:4 Psalm 146:4)

Animals and man have the same destination....both return to the dust. Man however is promised a resurrection (a restoration of life here on earth where God put us in the first place) but animals are given no such promise.

Sentimentality is not a substitute for the truth.....and the truth is, God never designed animals to live forever....but he did purpose for humans to keep living so as to be constant caretakers of his earth, given his qualities and attributes, so as to fulfill that assignment as God willed.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I do not recall Baha'u'llah saying anything about them but Abdu'l-Baha said we should avoid them.
Sorry, it is late so I cannot find the quote right now.
No problem.
I thought that most Bahais are indeed prejudiced against Spiritualism and that could be why.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Its an interesting point for God's alleged word to contain. God presumably knows what happens to the human and animal spirits.

Yes Eccles 3:21 is interesting considering God does know. I see it as showing how Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon. He seems to state a lot of things from the pov of what we can see and cannot see.
 

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Humans have the capacity to know and worship God. Humans can reflect all the attributes of God. We can turn to the light of His Revelation and have reflected from our innermost lives His Divine light. To the best of my very limited knowledge, animals have no such capacity.

I’m not aware of any verses in the Bible that would support an afterlife for animals. I have no doubt some Christians believe animals have souls and ascend to the afterlife regardless. But how can they journey through the world’s of God if they are incapable of reflecting His light in this world?
How do you know animals have no such capacity? I know animals are capable of reflecting God's light. Animals are much more like us than we think. Animals is also God's creations. God love animals. Of course can animals travel trough the world's of God
 

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
How do you know animals have no such capacity? I know animals are capable of reflecting God's light. Animals are much more like us than we think. Animals is also God's creations. God love animals. Of course can animals travel trough the world's of God
 
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