Animals, spirit world in Baha'i

[JoshuaTree]

“The animal spirit is the power of all the senses, which is realized from the composition and mingling of elements; when this composition decomposes, the power also perishes and becomes annihilated. It may be likened to this lamp: when the oil, wick and fire are combined, it is lighted; and when this combination is dissolved—that is to say, when the combined parts are separated from one another—the lamp also is extinguished.” Some Answered Questions, p. 208

First off, to say that “The animal spirit is the power of all the senses, which is realized from the composition and mingling of elements” as if that is all an animal is is not a scientific fact, it is a religious belief.

Second off, it is a scientific fact that animals are a composition of elements (matter) and matter can never be destroyed, it only changes form. So there is no reason to thank that animals are extinguished just because their bodies decompose. Human bodies also decompose but humans have a soul that leaves the body. So there is no reason to believe that the same thing does not happen to the animal spirit after their body dies.

“The first law of thermodynamics doesn't actually specify that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but instead that the total amount of energy in a closed system cannot be created nor destroyed (though it can be changed from one form to another). It was after nuclear physics told us that mass and energy are essentially equivalent - this is what Einstein meant when he wrote E= mc^2 - that we realized the 1st law of thermodynamics also applied to mass. Mass became another form of energy that had to be included in a thorough thermodynamic treatment of a system. (For a very important note on the difference between matter and mass, see here: The Equivalence of Mass and Energy (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)).”

https://www.physicscentral.com/experiment/askaphysicist/physics-answer.cfm?uid=20120221015143

Suppose man has a soul and an animal does not, does man's memory of an animal in the afterlife not count as a soul for the animal?

 

[Trailblazer]

Its an interesting point for God's alleged word to contain. God presumably knows what happens to the human and animal spirits.

Of course God knows and it is just not right that God did not reveal that information. There really is no excuse for it as what harm could be done by revealing that to Baha'u'llah? It is a lot more important to some of us than some of the other stuff He wrote about. IMO.

 

[Trailblazer]

Suppose man has a soul and an animal does not, does man's memory of an animal in the afterlife not count as a soul for the animal?

I do not see how man's memory of an animal in the afterlife would count as a soul for the animal.
An animal is a sentient being who has its own thoughts and feelings, it does not need to rely upon humans for its existence.

I suppose man has a rational soul and an animal has an animal spirit and that there is plenty of room in the spiritual world for both man and animal.

Ecclesiastes 3:21
New International Version

21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think in one of the earlier copies of Some Answered Questions it says (paraphrasing) that man was always essentially man and then compares this to how from the beginning of embryonic life man changes form in the womb but is always man right from the beginning. Of course now the Universal House of Justice (UHJ) has come out and said that Abdul-Baha was not denying evolution. So I guess Baha'is have no choice but to assume that Abdul-Baha meant that at some point during human evolution humanity became fit for receipt of a soul.

I have always read some answered questions to infer that man has evolved as an individual species, not a byproduct of a genetic mutation from one species, ape to man.

The writings tell us to look at the formation of the human species in the process of birth into this world, to understand how man has evolved throughout time. Abdul'baha says no matter what form we may have taken, the potential was always the Human capacity of mind.

What I have found there are many writings on this topic and no one talk will give the whole picture.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think it is possible that they do, we just cannot know for certain.
But we cannot even know for certain that humans go to the spirit world, so......

This advice from the Universal House of Justice may help.

".......For an animal, the joys and realities of life are basically physical and emotional. It neither possesses, nor can it understand, the spiritual reality of a human being. The world it inhabits is perfectly attuned to its needs and level of existence. If it were to be transported to a purely spiritual world, it would be deprived of all that it knows and values. A human being who does not develop his spiritual nature, who lives at the purely animal and materialistic level, experiences entry into the next life as a descent into hell, while a soul which has developed its spiritual capacities experiences it as an ascent into heaven – as an unfolding and blossoming of greater potentialities. Thus, although, as ‘Abdu’l-Bahá explains, the animal spirit, which becomes individualized in a particular creature, does not survive in its individual condition after death, this is no deprivation or cause of suffering for the animal, but is perfectly suited to its condition by an All-Wise and All-Perfect Creator. As for a human soul who has known and loved an animal – those experiences, as memories, have become a part of his or her eternal life. This, indeed, is what happens to our relationship to all material things. They will eventually be dispersed, so all the physical beauties of this world will ultimately remain only in our memories; but, as such, they constitute an enrichment of our lives which will continue to develop in the spiritual worlds."
Universal House of Justice, 9 March 1995, to an individual believer

Also @Meandflower

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

I have always read some answered questions to infer that man has evolved as an individual species, not a byproduct of a genetic mutation from one species, ape to man.

Are you suggesting that according to Abdul-Baha man evolved parallel to other species as opposed to diverging from other species?

Because that is precisely the impression I was left with after reading the earlier version of Some Answered Questions.

It is a view that is demonstrably opposed to science in my opinion.

Although I don't know if @Meandflower is interested in science so perhaps I'm wasting time offering an opinion on it?

 

[Lyndon]

My cat is more spiritually aware than Abdu'l Baha it would seem!!

 

[JoshuaTree]

I do not see how man's memory of an animal in the afterlife would count as a soul for the animal.
An animal is a sentient being who has its own thoughts and feelings, it does not need to rely upon humans for its existence.

I suppose man has a rational soul and an animal has an animal spirit and that there is plenty of rom in the spiritual world for both man and animal.

Ecclesiastes 3:21
New International Version

21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

Yeah, I was just pondering free will. If an animal has free will with its own thoughts and feelings then man's memory of animals in the afterlife would be incomplete, something would have been lost that could not be forgotten in the conservation from life into death, suggesting that the soul of animals is every bit as real as the soul of man. On the other hand if God is in control and there is no free will for man or animal then no requirement for souls to exist, and God's memory of both man and animal would count as our souls.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I hope you realize there is no way you can know that anything that is in the Baha'i Writings about the soul or the afterlife is true or false. It is a belief, no more and no less and as such it can never be proven true or false.

Of course. Nor can we definitively prove or disprove the existence of God. We can not prove definitively whether any of the men Baha'is consider the Manifestations of God were in fact Manifestations of God or just human beings. Yet that is what I believe as a Baha'i.

What Abdu'l-Baha says about animal spirits being extinguished makes no sense to me and he is not infallible so I do not have to accept what he said.

OK. Once again its a matter of Faith. Baha'u'llah appointed 'Abdu'l-Baha as His successor in His Will and Testament, the Kitab-i-Aqdas and the Tablet of the branch. So I don’t have to accept anything anyone says as being true. But I choose to accept the authority of Bahá’u’lláh and His appointed successor and the twin successors of ‘Abdu’l-Baha.

Moreover, I do not distrust all the people that have communicated with animal spirits that have passed on anymore than I distrust those who have communicated with human spirits. Nor do I distrust people I know who have seen animal spirits appear to them after they died.

I don’t have any faith in clairvoyants, and I’d be circumspect in admitting the testimony of those who have viewed their deceased relatives and animal companions as anymore more than hearsay. Call me a sceptic!

But we all have a right to believe whatever we want to and only after we die will we really know what happens.

I agree completely and haven’t the slightest inclination to push my personal beliefs, Baha’i or otherwise on anyone.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Are you suggesting that according to Abdul-Baha man evolved parallel to other species as opposed to diverging from other species?

Because that is precisely the impression I was left with after reading the earlier version of Some Answered Questions.

It is a view that is demonstrably opposed to science in my opinion.

Although I don't know if @Meandflower is interested in science so perhaps I'm wasting time offering an opinion on it?

All I can say and I see what science will find, is that evolution does not contain a mutation to develop a new species.

Each species evolves and unfolds in creation to a perfect formula, a co-mingling of elements that suits the conditions of the environment it lives in.

Man, as we currently see ourselves, were not like this when we first were brought into existence, Abdul'baha put it this way;

"In the beginning of his formation the mind and spirit also existed, but they were hidden; later they were manifested. In the womb of the world mind and spirit also existed in the embryo, but they were concealed; afterward they appeared. So it is that in the seed the tree exists, but it is hidden and concealed; when it develops and grows, the complete tree appears. In the same way the growth and development of all beings is gradual; this is the universal divine organization and the natural system. The seed does not at once become a tree; the embryo does not at once become a man; the mineral does not suddenly become a stone. No, they grow and develop gradually and attain the limit of perfection. (SAQ 198-199)

When we read about what Baha'u'llah has said about life on other planets, it is applicable to life on our planet as well.

"The earth has its inhabitants, the water and the air contain many living beings and all the elements have their nature spirits, then how is it possible to conceive that these stupendous stellar bodies are not inhabited? Verily, they are peopled, but let it be known that the dwellers accord with the elements of their respective spheres. These living beings do not have states of consciousness like unto those who live on the surface of this globe: the power of adaptation and environment moulds their bodies and states of consciousness, just as our bodies and minds are suited to our planet. For example, we have birds that live in the air, those that live on the earth and those that live in the sea... The components of the sun differ from those of this earth, for there are certain light and life-giving elements radiating from the sun. Exactly the same elements may exist in two bodies, but in varying quantities. For instance, there is fire and air in water, but the allotted measure is small in proportion. They have discovered that there is a great quantity of radium in the sun; the same element is found on the earth, but in a much smaller degree. Beings who inhabit those distant luminous bodies are attuned to the elements that have gone into their composition of their respective spheres."
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Divine Philosophy, p. 114-115

I am always amazed that we will keep discovering new species, not matter what happens to this planet.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

For instance, there is fire and air in water

The quack who said this and yet you will believe anything He says without independent investigation Tony
All the above in my opinion of course.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The quack who said this and yet you will believe anything He says without independent investigation Tony

One needs to read the quote in its context Daniel. Abdul'baha was explaining complex subjects to more simple minds.

Water is composed of the chemical elements hydrogen and oxygen. Fire and Air, but in quantities as Abdul'baha was explaining.

All the best Daniel, Regards Tony

That is up to you.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

One needs to read the quote in its context Daniel. Abdul'baha was explaining complex subjects to more simple minds.

Water is composed of the chemical elements hydrogen and oxygen. Fire and Air, but in quantities as Abdul'baha was explaining.

All the best Daniel, Regards Tony

That is up to you.

Regards Tony

Being composed of hydrogen and oxygen does not mean water contains fire.
In my opinion

 

[Trailblazer]

This advice from the Universal House of Justice may help.

".......For an animal, the joys and realities of life are basically physical and emotional. It neither possesses, nor can it understand, the spiritual reality of a human being. The world it inhabits is perfectly attuned to its needs and level of existence. If it were to be transported to a purely spiritual world, it would be deprived of all that it knows and values. A human being who does not develop his spiritual nature, who lives at the purely animal and materialistic level, experiences entry into the next life as a descent into hell, while a soul which has developed its spiritual capacities experiences it as an ascent into heaven – as an unfolding and blossoming of greater potentialities. Thus, although, as ‘Abdu’l-Bahá explains, the animal spirit, which becomes individualized in a particular creature, does not survive in its individual condition after death, this is no deprivation or cause of suffering for the animal, but is perfectly suited to its condition by an All-Wise and All-Perfect Creator. As for a human soul who has known and loved an animal – those experiences, as memories, have become a part of his or her eternal life. This, indeed, is what happens to our relationship to all material things. They will eventually be dispersed, so all the physical beauties of this world will ultimately remain only in our memories; but, as such, they constitute an enrichment of our lives which will continue to develop in the spiritual worlds."
Universal House of Justice, 9 March 1995, to an individual believer

Also @Meandflower

Regards Tony

With all due respect, I believe that The UHJ is biased by what Abdu'l-Baha said and biased by their own beliefs about the inferiority of animals.

Neither the UHJ nor Abdu'l-Baha has the right to speak as the Voice of God, as only the Manifestations of God have that authority,

There is a lot that is not known by science about animal thoughts and feelings so to assume all they care about is eating and drinking and sleeping is the haughtiest of religious beliefs. I cannot abide by it because I know animals are more than that. Just because animals are not the same as humans, and just because they do not worship God does not mean they do not continue to exist in some form after they die, or that they have no purpose for continuing to exist, or that that they want to be nonexistent. Such is the haughtiness of some religious beliefs.

I just deleted what I wrote after that even though I wanted to say it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Being composed of hydrogen and oxygen does not mean water contains fire.
In my opinion

I think that scientists should be consulted for scientific subjects.
In my opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Being composed of hydrogen and oxygen does not mean water contains fire.
In my opinion

It is my opinion Abdul'baha knew that. What he was demonstrating is that man is also composed of elements, elements we share with animals but in differing degrees and when they reach their perfect co-mingling, then they produce the potential they were made for. That potential is the joining of the brain to a higher spirit, a spirit which when used can reach out to all the potential that God has given us to find.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Being composed of hydrogen and oxygen does not mean water contains fire.
In my opinion

Yet all matter including water is composed of energy and small amounts of air is dissolved into water.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

With all due respect, I believe that The UHJ is biased by what Abdu'l-Baha said and biased by their own beliefs about the inferiority of animals.

Neither the UHJ nor Abdu'l-Baha has the right to speak as the Voice of God, as only the Manifestations of God have that authority,

There is a lot that is not known by science about animal thoughts and feelings so to assume al they care about is eating and drinking and sleeping is the haughtiest of religious beliefs. I cannot abide by it because I know animals are more than that. Just because animals are not the same as humans, and just because they do not worship God does not mean they do not continue to exist in some form after they die, or that they have no purpose for continuing to exist, or that that they want to be nonexistent. Such is the haughtiness of some religious beliefs.

I just deleted what I wrote after that even though I wanted to say it.

You are free to express those views Susan. I can only offer, that to say that "Neither the UHJ nor Abdu'l-Baha has the right to speak as the Voice of God, as only the Manifestations of God have that authority", is a view not backed up in any way by Baha'u'llah.

In the Baha'i Faith, Abdul'Baha was given full authority by Baha'u'llah to explain the Message given by Baha'u'llah. Abdul'baha was gifted for that very purpose as the "Mystery of God", a station that is not a Manifestation, but far beyond our current capacity. Abdul'baha in turn said that station amounted to being Abdul'baha, the "Servant of Baha". That servitude is a perfect reflection of the Message of Baha'u'llah.

But all this is taking us away from a topic that is dear to you. Personally I am happy that all the animals I have owned and loved are part of me and that I will take the attributes they shared with me, on my journey in the life to come.

It helps to read what Abdul'baha has said about the care of animals, when we read that advice, we can see that it is us that learns from the animal, we learn from their given attributes. A dog is loyal, courageous, patient, a cat can be caring, loving, playful, curious, adventurous, to name a few.

They do not die, they live on in us and we get to choose if we live on in God.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

OK. Once again its a matter of Faith. Baha'u'llah appointed 'Abdu'l-Baha as His successor in His Will and Testament, the Kitab-i-Aqdas and the Tablet of the branch. So I don’t have to accept anything anyone says as being true. But I choose to accept the authority of Bahá’u’lláh and His appointed successor and the twin successors of ‘Abdu’l-Baha.

Baha'u'llah had no control over what happened after He died. Things can and do go wrong when a successor is appointed. When I see things that Adbu'l-Baha wrote that Baha'u'llah never wrote, that is adding, not interpreting. I never saw Shoghi Effendi doing that. From what I have seen, all he did was interpret what Baha'u'llalh wrote with great humility. Of course the UHJ is caught in the middle because they are sometimes called upon to interpret what Abdu'l-Baha wrote. Sometimes I think this whole thing is a mess, but I still believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God so I am in between a rock and a hard place.

Just call me a skeptic. I cannot have complete faith in anyone but a Manifestation of God.

 

[danieldemol]

Yet all matter including water is composed of energy and small amounts of air is dissolved into water.

All sorts of things that don't contain fire contain energy Adrian.
A solid lump of steel at most ordinary temperatures contains energy but not fire.
In my opinion.