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Animals, a soul, and free will

HelpMe

·´sociopathic meanderer`·
Druidus said:
The catch is, we aren't allowed to use the bible, or any other religious work or belief, or evolution. I'll start with a few showing why they do.

1. Because their anatomy and brain structure is so similar to ours.
2. Because they feel pain. Why have pain if you have no soul?
3. Because life is life, and why should one life be different?

1their brain structure is actually very different.
2they feel pain, but they cannot choose to widthstand it as humans may.
3i don't know what your point is, should we live off of dirt and rocks, or are plant lives different?

FeathersinHair said:
but I don't believe I ever said anything about it not being a bible-based discussion.

for the both of you.

the path to this discussion is as follows:

Religious Education > Debate > Biblical Debates > Animals, a soul, and free will


--S
 
Okay, hate to jump in so late, but i think a coyote chewing off a trapped limb is an example of withstanding pain. I have seen snakes (which I believe are quite noble, stoic animals) withstand horrid wounds (for no better reason than they were snakes) and just sit and endure the recuperation. No whining, crying and grousing. If anything, I believe animals are far better at withstanding pain. I would say humans are the ones with a choice NOT to withstand it.
HelpMe, you are right, however, that this is a biblical debate and much of what has been said is highly out of place. There are other forums and threads for other trains of thought.
 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
1their brain structure is actually very different.

Actually, the underlying brain structure in mammals, and primates especially, is amazingly similar to ours. Show me where someone claims they are very different.

2they feel pain, but they cannot choose to widthstand it as humans may.

Of course they can choose to withstand it. What the hell do you mean?

3i don't know what your point is, should we live off of dirt and rocks, or are plant lives different?

If we respect the plants then it's ok to eat them. If you want, you could be a fruitarian. It's the natural diet of most primates like us, plus fruits are the only food given freely. :p
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
HelpMe said:
1their brain structure is actually very different.
2they feel pain, but they cannot choose to widthstand it as humans may.
3i don't know what your point is, should we live off of dirt and rocks, or are plant lives different?



for the both of you.

the path to this discussion is as follows:

Religious Education > Debate > Biblical Debates > Animals, a soul, and free will

--S

I'm very sorry if I've offended, but please take a look once again at what I'd written. " but I don't believe I ever said anything about it not being a bible-based discussion." (Italics added this time.) That was rather the point of my post.
 

Greyson

Member
One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.
SOGFPP~Please clarify that I may understand. You say 'the affection due only to persons..I love mine wife with everything that I am, just as I do my Father God, yet i'm supposed to reserve showing affection to my puppy because she isn't human? On that note as well, what makes persons more deserving of affection than animals? Are persons Grateful to God that Christ died for our sins? Many of them are not. Are they more deserving than animals? I have to respectfully disagree.
 

HelpMe

·´sociopathic meanderer`·
i'm not offended at all, thanks though.


4 posts, 0 biblical references, 0 replies from me

enjoy

--S
 
To try and answer your question Pah, animals are innocent and sin not! If animals suffer it is because of man and his sin!
I was facinated by the studies in the 60's useing sensitive equipment to register pain in a plant that had been cut and also the reation of plants when music was played near them! Remember the movie "Powder"? I was on the road many years ago when a deer was hit by a semi in front of me and I stopped and it had a broken back. I looked in it's eyes and at that moment I could understand all it was feeling! I really loved the story of the "Horse Wisperer" and I wonder if it was always that way? Ionce looked into the eyes of a wolf and I saw our Creator staring back at me!
Animals must have "souls" the word is Greek but I can't spell it, Psuce?? means mind will and emotions! As to haveing a spirit I don't understand that, only maybe they have a life from God that's uniqe to them!? There is so much more but i must sign off!
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
To be perfectly honest, God did not breathe the breath (spirit)of life into the animals, but says," he blew into man the breath of life". Gen 2:7
Which means, His spirit was placed in man at creation.
We were created in his image and likenesss with his attributes to worship him with praise.
The animals were created for our pleasure and enjoyment and there were no animals who dominated , preyed over and attacked other creatures including man. Animals did not eat the weak and sick, because there was no sickness ,disease or death.
Creation was not perverted IN THE BEGINNING
But when sin entered the world thru one man ( Adam) death ,spiritual death also came and separated us, animals and all creation from createor God. We have become corrupt and violated straying from God's purpose and plan.
Today those who have sin in there life have become , according to scripture, alienated from God, as well as all creation, including animals
 

Ardhanariswar

I'm back!
yes and it also said that God created man and woman in the middle of the garden of eden and walked with them. *cough* woman was made from the rib. *cough* are we made from dust? are our cells labeled *dust*? *more coughs*

ya, so saying that God gave souls to only men is not very credible, is it.
 

cardero

Citizen Mod
A nice rule of thumb is if the physical entity (human or animal or plant) breathes (exposed to the physical environment) or lives or grows or thinks or evolves or exists it contains a soul.

The only difference between other entities and humans are their PURPOSE. I believe animals have free will but still require some insistence from other BEings. Sin does not exist.
 

croak

Trickster
In Islam, we don't believe they have souls and free will. We have the decision to believe in Allah or to disbelieve in Him. If we could talk to animals, they wouldn't say: "I disbelieve in Allah." They would say the exact opposite. Also, you don't see them building cities in the near future and you don't see them suddenly thinking: "Wait, maybe this human doesn't want to kill me. I guess I'll just ignore him." What he thinks is:"Human. They're killers. Must run away."
 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
If we could talk to animals, they wouldn't say: "I disbelieve in Allah." They would say the exact opposite.
How do you know this without talking to them? I know of a parrot who said the exact opposite of what you believe they would say. He went on and on about how God was coming to get him, making jokes and all. Later on, he said, "I don't believe in God." I'm not sure where you could find this, I read it this summer, and listened to the sound clip of the conversation. I'm sure you could find it if you searched for something like "parrot and God" though. How can you possibly say that you know what something else believes?

Also, you don't see them building cities in the near future
Do they need them? No. If an evolutionary need for cities arose, it would evolve over time (a long time).

you don't see them suddenly thinking: "Wait, maybe this human doesn't want to kill me. I guess I'll just ignore him."
That's because the maybe is too high of a chance to take. If you say a man with an AK47 running down your street, would you just think "Wait, maybe he doesn't want to kill me. I guess I'll just ignore him." No, because it is illogical. However, some people possess an ability to calm non-humans, and are able to make it seem as if some non-humans think that way.
 

Ardhanariswar

I'm back!
we are all part of God, a universal divine spirit that unites us all, whether we awknowledge it or not. there is something out there.... too much proof for it.
 

Doc

Space Chief
Druidus said:
An orca will eat a turtle every now and then, if it comes across one. Many don't even see a turtle there entire lives, but they will eat them yet. Turtles are the natural prey of an orca, simply because all flesh is natural prey to an orca. Similarily, any flesh is natural prey to a polar bear. We are flesh, we are prey.


Actually, I have three pet box turtles all of which are the most innocent creatures that I know of. I am a vegetarian and pride myself as the only one in the family. I think it is quite arrogant to say that because we are the so called 'superior species' then we own the world and do with it what we want. I believe that animals have a conscious and free will and intellect. Not many can successfully argue that point. Just read "Animal Minds" by Donald Griffin being one of the first people to prove animal intellect. One example is a gorilla using a sharp stone to break open a coconut in the wild. They are smarter than we think. Smarter than us! We pride ourselves on our great empires and industries, but in the end our ignorance plunders the world of its beauty.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Well Doc, maybe that's why we don't eat gorillas.

It seems interesting that we don't eat animals which are considered to be more intelligent than others, or which provide love and companionship to us.
 

Doc

Space Chief
You would not believe how loving these turtles can be even if they do not try to be! I talk to mine like they are just regular people in my house! I think people have a harder time eating and killing animals if they actually had known that animal and learned to love them!
 

Ardhanariswar

I'm back!
they may be smart, but they do not have a sense of right and wrong. they only act on instinct. unless if you say a tad bit of morality is involved in instinct, but i doubt that. a lion, after killing the deer for his meal does not go into phsyciatric coucenling, or get tried by other members of his pride/pack.
 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
Actually, I have three pet box turtles all of which are the most innocent creatures that I know of. I am a vegetarian and pride myself as the only one in the family. I think it is quite arrogant to say that because we are the so called 'superior species' then we own the world and do with it what we want. I believe that animals have a conscious and free will and intellect. Not many can successfully argue that point. Just read "Animal Minds" by Donald Griffin being one of the first people to prove animal intellect. One example is a gorilla using a sharp stone to break open a coconut in the wild. They are smarter than we think. Smarter than us! We pride ourselves on our great empires and industries, but in the end our ignorance plunders the world of its beauty.
I'm a vegan, the only one in my family. My aunt is vegetarian though. I, too, believe that they are concious and intelligent, however, I do stop at a point. Ants don't have the same level of conciousness that a dolphin does. I have a pet parrot, a Timneh African Grey, to be exact. Her name is "Darwin". She is amazingly intelligent. She soon may be able to count(Even this is young for her, she's not even a year old, and they can live for over 100 years!). You won't get any arguments from me on the point that non-humans are inferior. I believe in the equality of all beings, and I pride myself on never intentionally (directly or indirectly) contributed to the death of anything (other then some vegetable species) in near one year now. You must have misinterpreted my post. In no way do I feel I am superior to non-humans.

Well Doc, maybe that's why we don't eat gorillas.
Unfortuneately, some people poach and eat them. :(

It seems interesting that we don't eat animals which are considered to be more intelligent than others
Pigs are the seventh or sixth smartest animal in the world...

they may be smart, but they do not have a sense of right and wrong. they only act on instinct.
How can you say this? I have seen the sense of right or wrong within my bird and my dog. Moreso in my bird, who has felt GUILT. Why is it that you can presume to know how and why a being does something? Sure, maybe insects and other "dumb" non-humans act one instinct, but certainly, the "higher" forms do not. It is terribly anthropocentric to believe so.

a lion, after killing the deer for his meal does not go into phsyciatric coucenling
Neither do human hunters. I guess they don't have morality either.

or get tried by other members of his pride/pack.
Probably because, like humans now, the lion doesn't consider deer worthy of status. They do have a form of justice, if, say, a lion kills another, completely unwarrented. That lion is now the target of abuse.
 
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