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Animals, a soul, and free will

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Pah, Sep 4, 2004.

  1. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    In Genesis, God created the animals, The questions I’d like discussed is whether this biblical God embodied the animals with souls and if free will was given, in the same period, to the animals. And finally, is sin, as spoken of in the Bible, attributable to animals if they do not have a soul and/or free will?

    -pah-
     
  2. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    I have no diea, this is a very good question, thank you for asking it.

    Well let's see animals have emotions, have intelligence, but a soul?

    and free will? this I believe so, as all animals were created to serve humanity, yet some rebel against their masters as some humans rebel against theirs.
    (The fact that animals are meant to serve(or at least co-exist with) humanity is seen that no animal's natural prey is the human, and most will not even attack a human unless under dire circumstances(starvation ect) or protecting their young.)

    Sin I believe is a human only fault, as we are the only creation(that I know of, can't understand dog :) ) that has gone against the word of God and sinned.
     
  3. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    I hate it when people hold themselves on a pedestal, as if they are greater then other creatures. We are all the same. They have the same emotions as us. Some are as smart as us (the common dolphin is possibly smarter). They have free will, and the same "souls" as a human would have. "Sin" is attributable to any creature. We are the natural prey of certain things. For instance, before Inuit got guns, polar bears would stalk and hunt them, and they still do today, as they haven't adjusted. Certain snakes will hunt us, and certainly, the large cats will. Take away all of your tools, and place you in South America, northern Canada, Africa or Asia and you become prey, just like any other.

    That is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. That kind of mindset would get you killed where I live. When we walk out on the tundra, we are cautious, in case we see wolves or a polar bear. They hunt us like any other animal. Why is it that they were "created to serve us". The bible doesn't even say that! It says that we will have dominance over them, and I must admit, give a man a gun and not much can dominate him. But that doesn't mean they are our slaves! That doesn't mean we have the right to do as we please. I look on the plight of animals all over the world these days, including humans, and I could cry. :(
     
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  4. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder what my horse would do if I got on his back and treated him like my servant.

    *raise eyebrows* "Riiiiight...hope you like dirt" *Kapow!* ;)

    We are partners with animals on this earth.
     
  5. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Ok maybe serve was too strong a word, when you get on your horse though, you tell him/her where to go, how fast to go, when he/she can stop do you not?

    More like respected underlings.

    Saying that animals killing us makes us a natural prey is not true, natural prey(to me) entails that that animal is the major source of food for the other. Is human the main food eaten by polar bears?

    On wolves, you are more likely to get struck by lightning then fataly wounded by a wolf. That is a statistical fact. In the past 50 years, in NA there have been zero confirmed fatal wolf attacks and in Europe/Russia there have been only 17.

    Oh, and I never meant slavery, I serve my God, but I am not his slave, Druidus you serve your God(s) do you consider youself its(their) slave?

    I understand that some animals are in very narrow straits, and yes we need to do something about that, my God tells me to respect all animals, and to take very good care of animals I take into my household.

    On topic: I guess I can go with sin and soul, seeing as I've seen glutton and envious animals.
     
  6. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Respect for the integrity of creation

    2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity.195 Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man's dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.196

    2416 Animals are God's creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.197 Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.

    2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.198 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

    2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.
     
  7. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    An orca will eat a turtle every now and then, if it comes across one. Many don't even see a turtle there entire lives, but they will eat them yet. Turtles are the natural prey of an orca, simply because all flesh is natural prey to an orca. Similarily, any flesh is natural prey to a polar bear. We are flesh, we are prey.

    Genesis 1:29
    Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

    It is very clear, that right there it says God gave the first people the plants and the trees for food. Some people try to twist this scripture to mean other things, and try to argue that this does not prove people were eating only the fruits and plants. One popular argument is that it was allowing man to eat vegetables as well as meat, but this is wrong. Humans did not meat eat until after the flood. To prove this we need to turn to the 9th chapter of Genesis.....

    Genesis 9:3
    Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

    Now notice God says "just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything". This is proof that before this point, people were only eating fruits and vegetables. At any rate, at this point God allowed man to eat meat, which opens up the argument that abstaining from meat is a subconscious form of questioning God's mercy. This is not true at all. In fact, vegetarians who believe in the bible are merely preparing themselves for heaven. When the kingdom of heaven is established, all beings will become herbivores. Some might argue that we will not need to eat in heaven, but the bible teaches that even in heaven, beings must eat. For example, in Genesis 19:1-3, angels from heaven ate a meal made of bread. So in heaven, beings will continue to eat. The prophet Isaiah gave many descriptions of this kingdom, and all his visions point to all beings being vegetarian. If all beings in heaven are going to be herbivores, then it would be safe to say that vegetarians living today are merely more prepared for that time. Isaiah chapter 11 gives a lengthy description of the peaceful kingdom, and the 65th chapter has a particular verse that strongly supports the idea of a kingdom filled with nothing but herbivores....

    Isaiah 65:25
    "The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither hunt nor destroy on all my holy mountain," says the LORD.

    Romans 14:21
    It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause any man to stumble.

    The name Daniel means "God is my judge", showing how confident he was that his actions were righteous in the eyes of God. Well, Daniel also was a vegetarian. In the first chapter of the book of Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon has imprisoned Daniel. In verse 8, Daniel refused to defile himself by eating the meat being served to him in the prison. Some have said that this is because the meat was offered to Babylonian gods, but this is incorrect, as vegetables were also offered in the name of these same Gods. Daniel abstained from the meat offered because he was a vegetarian. He knew the benefits of such a diet. Consider the following verses...

    Daniel 1:11-16
    Daniel then said to the guard whom the chief official had appointed over him: "Please test your servants for ten days: Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink. Then compare our appearance with that of the young men who eat the royal food, and treat your servants in accordance with what you see." So he agreed to this and tested them for ten days. At the end of the ten days they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food. So the guard took away their meat and the wine they were to drink and gave them vegetables instead.

    And God said, "Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is a living soul, I have given every green herb for food: and it was so." ~God, Genesis 1:29-30

    Whatever you do unto the least of my brothers, you do it unto me. (Matthew 25:40)

    To kill an ox is like slaying a man; sacrificing a lamb, like breaking a dog's neck. (Isaiah 66:3-4)

    One of the ten commandments specifically says thou shalt not kill. It does not say merely thou shalt not murder, which would imply only humans, but it says "Thou shalt not kill," meaning any living being.

    According to the creation account in Genesis 1.21, 24 God created the animals and gave each a nephesh chayah, the Hebrew translated as “soul”.

    "anyone, then, who knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, sins"
    -Jesus

    Sorry to overload with info, but I'm passionate about this.
     
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  8. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    the hebrew word for 'soul' basically means the entirety of your living being.so it applies to animals, and likely plants as well.

    as for the free will and such, that pertains the spirit which the 'god' of the 'bible' gave to humans.

    Psa. 22:20: "Deliver my soul (nephash) from the sword..."
    Jer. 38:17: "If thou wilt assuredly go forth unto the King of Babylon's princes, then thy soul (nephesh) shall live..."
    1st Sam. 19:11: "If thou save not thy life (nephesh--soul) tonight, tomorrow thou shalt be slain."
    1st Kings 19:10: "...they seek my life (nephesh) to take it."
    Esther 7:7: "Haman stood up to make request for his life (nephesh)..."
    Psa. 22:29: "...none can keep alive his own soul (nephesh)."

    In 32 passages, souls (nephesh) are spoken of as being KILLED BY MAN. Examples are:

    Josh. 10:28: "Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, and all the souls (nephesh) that were therein..."

    This is repeated in verses 30, 32, 35, 37, and 39.

    Let us look particularly at Lev. 24:17-18. The Authorized Version reads:

    "...he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death. And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast."

    In the original, nephesh occurs here four times, as follows:

    "He that smiteth the nephesh (soul) of a man, shall surely be put to death. And he that smiteth the nephesh (soul) of a beast shall make it good; nephesh for nephesh."

    Here again the translators have, by inconsistent and biassed translation, obscured another clear divine lesson in the meaning of nephesh, or "soul."

    One more step, and then we are as far away from the immortal soul theory as it is possible to be--in 13 places souls (nephesh) are said to be actually DEAD.

    Examples are:

    Num. 6:6: "...he shall come at no dead body (nephesh)."

    Lev. 21:11: "Neither shall he go in to any dead body (nephesh)..."

    "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (psuche)..."

    He is quoting Gen. 2:7 which we have considered. In verse 46, he calls this living soul, "that which is natural." In verse 47, he calls it "of the earth, earthy." In verse 50, he calls it "flesh and blood" and "corruption." Paul's conception of soul fits perfectly with what we have already discovered.

    Similarly souls are applied to animals, and souls die, in the New Testament just as in the Old. In Rev. 8:9, we read:

    "And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life (psuche --soul), died..."

    Rev. 16:3: "...every living soul (psuche) died in the sea."


    What is meant here by saying that man cannot kill the soul? Are the Scriptures contradictory? Of course they are not. We must use wisdom to discern them properly. There is no difficulty in understanding what Christ means, if we sincerely seek a scriptural solution. Man can kill the body, but this has no permanent effect on our ultimate existence. To the faithful, this is but a brief sleep [Isa. 26:19; Dan. 12:2; Matt. 9:24; 27:52; Mark 5:39; Luke 8:52; John 11:11-14; Acts 7:60; 1 Cor. 15:6, 18, 20, 51; 1 Thess. 4:13-15; 5:10; 2 Peter 3:4; Deut. 31:16; 2 Sam. 7:12; 1 Kings 1:21; Job 7:21; 14:12; Psa. 13:31 Jer. 51:39, 57; Acts 13:36; 1 Kings 2:10; 11:21, 43; 14:20, 31; 15:8, 24; 16:6, 28; 22:40, 50; 2 Kings 8:24; 10:35; 13:9, 13; 14:16, 22, 29; 15:7, 22, 38; 16:20; 20:21; 21:18; 24:6; 2 Chron. 9:31; 12:16; 14:1; 16:13; 21:1; 26:2, 23; 27:9; 28:27; 32:33; 33:20; Job 3:13; Matt. 25:5]. In this sense, the ultimate, eternal sense, man can not kill the soul, or life. But God on the other hand is able to blot us out of existence forever and make all our memory to perish [Deut. 32:39;1 Sam. 2:6; Ecc. 9:4-6; Psa. 31:12; 88:5; Isa. 26:14; Ecc. 8:10].

    the teaching of the 'immortality of the soul' is false.


    need more?


    --S
     
  9. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    talk to horse trainers, they can feel the horse, like an actual human, with emotions. its not a servant, just a good hearted friend. there are different kinds of animals, each with thier own unique spirit.

    i believe all things have souls. trees, animals, humans. though thier mind is not complicated as ours, living things can sense suffering and happiness. humans are one of the few spieces that can actually control it and be free, if they learn the truth.
     
  10. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    animals don't have spirits(according to the 'bible')
     
  11. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    Actually, the bible clearly says they were given a soul. I was taught that they had one too, back in confirmation class (I used to be catholic).
     
  12. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    ooo, and the debate gets thicker.

    this is all according to the bible right? what if the bible is wrong? but no, that cannot be.
     
  13. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    Ah, then I'll have to disagree, if that's what the Bible says. I have spoken with their spirits, as they have with mine. To say otherwise would be like coming into a party, along with ten other people, and telling the host "I'm so glad you invited me!"
     
  14. G.A.

    G.A. New Member

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    The capacities of the animals to relate to God is not the same as humans. I have seen humans used by God's power to heal the blind, deaf, parapelegic, AIDS, even raise the dead, but I have never seen an animal do these things.
     
  15. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    Really? Which? I don't want to sound crazy, but I have merged conciousness with a tree, and am trying to do the same with a bird (raven) using druidic meditation.

    And to the above poster-

    Have you truly "seen" this? If so, who did it? It wasn't a tv evangelist was it? If it wasn't, that's pretty amazing. How come it's not on the news? And how long have you spent in the wild, watching animals in nature? If it's not much, then you can't truly say that they don't work miracles.
     
  16. G.A.

    G.A. New Member

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    I realized I made a mistake in my last post. I haven't personally seen the dead raised, but I have interviewed both the family members of the dead and those who have personally raised the dead. THe other things I have personally seen.
     
  17. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    Ok, but why is it not in the news? I've certainly never seen this. And how can we be sure that this is from "God" and not an innate power of humans? Do you have proof that you've seen this?
     
  18. G.A.

    G.A. New Member

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    Yes, I have truly seen healings, miracles, and deliverances from evil spirits. I have to confess that I don't live in the woods, but I still have never seen an animal perform a miracle. IT isn't on the news because most of the time the materialistic, rationalistic, secularistic viewpoint of the news media automatically discount such accounts as impossible. Regarding who was used to do such things, for the most part they were Christians from all walks of life on a team in Brazil or Mozambique or Ukraine or United States or England or China or Korea or Germany,et.al.
     
  19. G.A.

    G.A. New Member

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    I have medical records of a person who was dying of complications from AIDS with 14 days left to live who came from a hospice to receive prayer. Three days later he was totally healed. I have his medical records. I do not have other records but I have read others records who came to meetings with their doctors reports in hand proving the healing.

    Regarding whether or not it was God or human inate ability I want to state that I believe any healing can have at least three sources. First, it can be from God, second, it can be from the power of the human spirit which isn't as powerful as the Holy Spirit of God, and third, it can be from a demonic spirit which is stronger than the human spirit, but can't begin to compare with the Holy Spirit's power.
     
  20. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    I fear you'd have to try a lot harder to sound crazy to me, at least! :D Several different trees, ferrets, dogs, cats, and a pelican. Merging conciousness/ sharing energy with a critter is much the same as with an tree, except the resonation back is quite a bit stronger. I find it much easier if the creature is a 'totem' animal, since some part of its spirit is yours already.

    Be careful with Raven, though! They're tricky little so-and-so's!

    Also, I do not doubt that the human spirit is more powerful than that of 'a demonic spirit.' If anything, the human and the animal/ plant/ crystal spirits, are the antithesis of evil, since (uncorrupted) they are closer in kin to Spirit than anything else.
     
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