Animals, a soul, and free will

[Pardus]

Welcome to one of the catalysts that moved me away from christianity.

Just to put my stance on the table, I am an animal.

 

[pballfreek20]

It also says that Man, that being humans, are created in the image of God. Animals were put here on earth to serve man. There are certain things that separate us from animals as well. Our brain size. The ability to ask "why". Also there is no other created thing that wiilingly and knowingly wipes out it's own species. Animals have one instinct, that is survival. Every action an animal takes is for that.

 

[Katzpur]

It also says that Man, that being humans, are created in the image of God. Animals were put here on earth to serve man. There are certain things that separate us from animals as well. Our brain size. The ability to ask "why". Also there is no other created thing that wiilingly and knowingly wipes out it's own species. Animals have one instinct, that is survival. Every action an animal takes is for that.

I don't believe anyone is trying to say that humans and animals are identical creations. But I can tell you of a surety that not every action my dogs or my cat takes is for survival. I'm sorry you haven't experienced the kind of unconditional love they are capable of giving. It's definitely your loss.

 

[Pah]

... Animals were put here on earth to serve man. ...

My internet bible says "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.".

A king rules over his subjects and is obligated to care for them. This "two-way" street would say there is "serving" on both sides. What animals have you served today?

 

[St0ne]

Do animals feel love? Other than humans of course...

 

[Master Vigil]

The ability to ask "why".

Ever wonder why they don't ask why? It's because they don't need to. They are so spiritually advanced, they KNOW already. Wonder why they aren't stressed? Because they are so spiritually balanced that they are constantly at peace.

 

[Pardus]

I don't nessicarily completely agree with you vigil, but they are very much my sentiments.

 

[TheGreaterGame]

In Genesis, God created the animals, The questions I’d like discussed is whether this biblical God embodied the animals with souls and if free will was given, in the same period, to the animals. And finally, is sin, as spoken of in the Bible, attributable to animals if they do not have a soul and/or free will?

-pah-

Adam sinned so creation as a whole fell into a sinful or fallen state . . . this is known as Federal Theology . . . so I think that by way of fall animal aquired a heart or will to want kill and draw blood . . . but I have not fleshed this all out to say the least . . . but from my understanding the earth and its creatures are fallen and are now being redeemed by a risen Jesus

 

[YmirGF]

Aminals, a soul and free willy.

I can't say that I much care what the Bible has to say on the matter Pan. Evidently many others feel differently. Still others tell us of the magical kindred bond with our little friends. Then there is the wisdom of Druidus. Druidus makes me chuckle. I can well imagine a bear running up to the first thing it see just to offer a big hug. He's quite right. You don't want to get too close, unless you really know what you are doing.

I'm hardly an expert on the subject, but like always, I do have an opinion.

The animal folks are right. Animals must have souls, as they would certainly seem to have just a little more than a bit of "character". I have always believed that we can learn a lot about ourselves from animals, and I am not likey to ever change that view. I feel no shame in being the descendant of an ape that swung from a tree long ago. Funnily enough, to me, it just makes sense. I meet people all the time who simply serve to confirm that there are still a few that are not too far from the branch.

The meat of the matter. Free will. Hmmm. That IS a toughie. Don't look at me. Look around. What do you see? If you don't see the answer, then there is nothing I can tell you. And if I did have something to tell you, you would be better off not listening. Free will? That would be a yes.

 

[Pardus]

Yes YmirGF, the whale in free willy was an animal.

 

[Super Universe]

Animals do not normaly have souls. Humans are the interesting creatures, animals are instinctual. Think of them as a simple DOS program in a world of Windows programs.

Now you are sentient energy, an everlasting soul who wishes to experience the earth. Do you choose to join with a human body that can grow and develop and make choices based on morality or do you choose to live a simple life where you cannot comprehend why water falls from the sky?

 

[painted wolf]

so Animals are more stable, the hidden core of Humanity, less prone to Viruses, crashing and blue screens of death?

Good grief I hope I'm not running on Windows.... dear lord let me be a Penguin !!! :biglaugh:

wa:do

 

[pballfreek20]

I don't believe anyone is trying to say that humans and animals are identical creations. But I can tell you of a surety that not every action my dogs or my cat takes is for survival. I'm sorry you haven't experienced the kind of unconditional love they are capable of giving. It's definitely your loss.

Take away the food you give your animal once, take away the shelter you give your animal. When you got your pets you routinely fed them. If you trained your dog to go to the bathroom outside, you did it how? When it does what you want it to, it gets food. If it doesn't attack you, you give it shelter. Doesn't take much of a brain in any compasity to be able to understand that. On the part of unconditional love from an animal, I like animals I have a dog of my own, and it seems like a give-take relationship to me. My dog understands that he protects my house, I will give hims shelter and food.

 

[drekmed]

i feel that animals share many of the same traits as humans, and we are no better than they are. my family has a cat. this cats name is missy. missy is in my opinion fully aware, has free will, and is extremely intelligent, and somewhat moody.

awareness: missy knowns that the cat in the mirror is her. in fact she no longer even bothers to look anymore. she can distinguish between a toy animal, and a real animal even at a distance. she knows that the stuff playing on the tv isnt real, ive only seen her watch car racing and tennis for any length of time.

free will: she is quite capable of deciding whether she is gonna do something or not. on the door heading out to the in-closed garage, this has her food and litter pan, we have a little door for her to use. instead of using that door, if anyone is in the room, she will sit, and look back and forth between the person and the door handle. she will opt to not go into the garage at all if you dont open the door unless she is actually hungry, coming back in she will use the little door because nobody is out the to open the door. she will look for someone, going so far as to 'knock' on the door(actually picks at the bottom for a second and waits) until its opened, then looks inside, if you're who she is looking for, she'll come in and rub up against you, if not she'll continue to try and find the right person.

intelligence: missy has a really good memory. when someone new comes around, she will sniff them a bit, and then retreat quickly to another room. when someone she knows comes in, she will usually come and meet you at the door. i am only able to get home once a year, and missy remembers me every time. she has another quirk about her, my mom puts this liquid flee stuff on the back of her neck twice a year, and since the first time my mom did that, missy will not let mom touch her head without ducking away and looking at moms hands. i should note, missy does this only with mom.

moody: i swear this cat is bipolar. she goes a week, constant purring and in a great mood. then she'll go for a while, and no matter what you do, she won't purr at all, and will avoid contact with anyone, and just seems generally ticked off. the only person she will ever let pick her up and hold her is my sister. anybody else she will squirm, meow, hiss, and if you dont put her down she'll scratch and bite a little.

this doesn't even begin to scratch the surface on this cat, sometimes i think she believes we're the pets, and she owns the house.

if souls exist, there is no way that animals dont have them, they are no different than humans in that regard and others.

and just for the record, missy is by far the best cat in the world, and we got her 9 years ago tomorrow:icon_smil

Drekmed

 

[Pardus]

One thing i've learnt there is no point talking to christians about the equality of animals.

 

[Muhhamad Abdul Salam]

Animals were created by Allah for our pleasure (food,clothing,pets,etc.) and because animals steal, cheat, and kill on a daily basis without any contemplation or emotional reason they have no soul or free-will. They live entirely by instinct which explains why an animal mother protects her newborn; not out of love or affection but to continue the species' existence.

 

[searcher63]

Genesis clearly says: "GOD BLEW INTO THEIR NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE AND HE BECAME a living soul"..........NOT that he then HAD a living soul.

SEE ALSO the verse:" THE SOUL THAT IS SINNING, IT ITSELF SHALL DIE" in Proverbs I believe.
The Doctrinr of an Eternal Soul that lives on after the body dies is another adopted Pagan belief.

 

[Katzpur]

i feel that animals share many of the same traits as humans, and we are no better than they are. my family has a cat. this cats name is missy. missy is in my opinion fully aware, has free will, and is extremely intelligent, and somewhat moody.

awareness: missy knowns that the cat in the mirror is her. in fact she no longer even bothers to look anymore. she can distinguish between a toy animal, and a real animal even at a distance. she knows that the stuff playing on the tv isnt real, ive only seen her watch car racing and tennis for any length of time.

free will: she is quite capable of deciding whether she is gonna do something or not. on the door heading out to the in-closed garage, this has her food and litter pan, we have a little door for her to use. instead of using that door, if anyone is in the room, she will sit, and look back and forth between the person and the door handle. she will opt to not go into the garage at all if you dont open the door unless she is actually hungry, coming back in she will use the little door because nobody is out the to open the door. she will look for someone, going so far as to 'knock' on the door(actually picks at the bottom for a second and waits) until its opened, then looks inside, if you're who she is looking for, she'll come in and rub up against you, if not she'll continue to try and find the right person.

intelligence: missy has a really good memory. when someone new comes around, she will sniff them a bit, and then retreat quickly to another room. when someone she knows comes in, she will usually come and meet you at the door. i am only able to get home once a year, and missy remembers me every time. she has another quirk about her, my mom puts this liquid flee stuff on the back of her neck twice a year, and since the first time my mom did that, missy will not let mom touch her head without ducking away and looking at moms hands. i should note, missy does this only with mom.

moody: i swear this cat is bipolar. she goes a week, constant purring and in a great mood. then she'll go for a while, and no matter what you do, she won't purr at all, and will avoid contact with anyone, and just seems generally ticked off. the only person she will ever let pick her up and hold her is my sister. anybody else she will squirm, meow, hiss, and if you dont put her down she'll scratch and bite a little.

this doesn't even begin to scratch the surface on this cat, sometimes i think she believes we're the pets, and she owns the house.

if souls exist, there is no way that animals dont have them, they are no different than humans in that regard and others.

and just for the record, missy is by far the best cat in the world, and we got her 9 years ago tomorrow:icon_smil

Drekmed

You're lucky to have Missy and she's lucky to have you! If you weren't an atheist, I might try convincing you that this was a match made in heaven!

 

[Ori]

Animals were created by Allah for our pleasure (food,clothing,pets,etc.) and because animals steal, cheat, and kill on a daily basis without any contemplation or emotional reason they have no soul or free-will. They live entirely by instinct which explains why an animal mother protects her newborn; not out of love or affection but to continue the species' existence.

Are you sure we really have free will?

 

[blood-lord14]

Are you sure we really have free will?

i have went over this once
if we have free will then
we shouldnt have to ask this question.