Ancient Reality

[MNoBody]

I spent the winter going through Gerald Massey's material regarding Egypt
Ontology is fascinating
I am interested in hearing more about your line of research CladKing.
never mind the detractors
if this forum serves any real usefulness at all, it is in providing a means for people to consider other ideas...openly...;without having to defend the hunches they are exploring....far better to encourage the exploration, as we may actually learn something.

 

[cladking]

Recently I've been distracted by this pyramid which may or may not have been built almost exactly like G1. As I've said in the past there is a lot represented in Ancient Language. Every time I think I've pulled on the last string more skeins of meaning are found. Our language is like a wire, there's was a rope. It is a rich tapestry of meaning.

Interestingly if G1 is built just like this pyramid a few new questions are answered and new explanations arise for detail in the gravimetric scan. Chiefly it would show more means by which weight was relieved from the "Mafdet Lynx (mongoose) (2nd Sphinx) under the NE corner. They simply built the tower core higher on this corner. It looks like all the odd patterns in this area are simply to reduce weight on this subsumed structure. But it also suggests that the optical illusion that looks like spiral ramps was generated by having the o-point of the data about 40' SSW of the center point of the pyramid.

Everything is just falling into place and I will continue to need to show why this can be solved by a hack/ crackpot/ poorly educated and none too sharp generalist while smarter, better trained, and more intelligent scientists have been completely and utterly misled for many centuries.

 

[cladking]

Ontology is fascinating

Indeed!!! I'd be fascinated to learn formal ontology but never did.

I am interested in hearing more about your line of research CladKing.

There's really not much too it. I've been a generalist since I was two years old. By this I merely mean I tried to understand everything in terms of everything else. I tried to understand the nature of thought and how I interact with the world. I studied some formal science but for various reasons didn't get very far. I found the Great Pyramid in 2006 and was surprised by its size and knew intuitively it wasn't built with ramps so began reverse engineering it.

Everything since has been a surprise. Obviously it has all been far more surprising to other people. Everything at least fits "all" my preconceptions but most of it flies in the face of scientific and religious people alike. The concept that religion can be based on reality and science is based on beliefs doesn't seem to appeal to anyone at all, including me. It is ironic though and I love irony. The idea that we aren't the crown of creation and all ancient people were wise and sophisticated scientists who lifted themselves from the caves to the real crown of creation (upper eye of horus) is anathema to just about everyone. The idea that we aren't even "intelligent" and that we only can see what we believe is offensive to most people. These things were mere surprises to me. My shock was that so very people really care about science and knowledge. They simply don't care that the physical evidence and logic show we are wrong about everything and that we use a confused language. This utter lack of concern is manifested and proven by the fact that Egyptology refuses to release the data from century old technology!!! Where is the uproar against medieval thought and practices? The man in charge has actually stated that no data which contradicts current beliefs will ever see the light of day!

Reverse engineering is simple enough. you merely look at various characteristics and form hypotheses for why they exist exactly as they do. Then you test these hypotheses within the closed system of the device through observation. It is a sort of complex thought experiment since hypotheses must each agree before you have a working model. I've had to refine, redefine, and chuck out various models to get to the current point. Always models have to reflect as much of the evidence as possible and must reflect known conditions as well as the capabilities, material, and knowledge of the builders. Understanding the language is essential ONLY because I see what I expect just like everyone so I can't see the evidence that's right before my eyes either. But I can see bits and scraps of evidence through the eyes of the builders themselves to point me in the right direction.

if this forum serves any real usefulness at all, it is in providing a means for people to consider other ideas...openly...;without having to defend the hunches they are exploring....far better to encourage the exploration, as we may actually learn something.

This is a very impressive forum. One of the most impressive on the net simply because people of highly divergent views are not always talking past one another. Most posters are very well spoken and actually trying to communicate with people with whom there is little agreement. It is also "right up my alley" because I believe there are very close ties between religion and science. Ultimately everybody is like a bunch of blind men trying to describe the elephant in the room.

I believe I got a little peek at the elephant's eyes and have discovered we are nowhere near the crown of creation and are merely the product of ancient technology, a confused language, and a new kind of metaphysics dissimilar to anything in nature.

 

[MNoBody]

well, you said nobody really cares about...... [a whole list]
nailed it.....i may be noBody, but i agree with your essential take on things
glad to meet you

 

[MNoBody]

thought this funny

 

[cladking]

well, you said nobody really cares about...... [a whole list]
nailed it.....i may be noBody, but i agree with your essential take on things
glad to meet you

Neat cartoon.

Nobody is more of a nobody than I even though at least here you have a head start. I'm cladking not because I'm any sort of king or any sort of royalty at all but because I'm the boy who sees the nekkid' kings. I may not know anything at all but I sure know when there's an elephant in the room and everyone else has apparently forgotten the reason science and logic exist. People have forgotten that science that can't make prediction is worthless and probably false as well. People have forgotten that it's reality we're supposed to be trying to understand and not the latest cosmological hypotheses.

"Science" was derailed in the 19th century and I'd place it in 1882 when the first Pyramid Texts were published. While the greatest scientists of all times came around in the 1890's the groundwork for being wrong was already well established. Darwin had placed biology in quicksand and Egyptology followed them in. Now we're headed into a new dark ages at an ever accelerating pace because science has been co opted and corrupted by a few greedy people who want the average man to believe they are our betters. We're rushing headlong into slavery and ignorance but people don't even seem to notice. Now all the worst traits of individuals and civilizations are held up as virtues and our best characteristics (including individualism) are sins and weaknesses. Groupthink is the ideal and critical reasoning is dangerous.

 

[ChristineM]

There are no elephants in tea cups and there were no ancient beliefs.

They didn't even have the word "belief" or any of it's synonyms.

This is Proof that there were no ancient beliefs. Semantics are irrelevant. These are verifiable facts stated as tautologies.

They didnt need a word to believe. The ancients certainly held beliefs.

 

[cladking]

They didnt need a word to believe. The ancients certainly held beliefs.

They had no abstractions!!! None of their words were abstractions.

They didn't lack a word here and there like "belief" or "thought" they lacked every single abstraction. Our language is chock full of abstractions like the word "animal" for instance. There is no such thing as an "animal" there are only rabbits, tigers, and fish. There were no categories or "types". There were no taxonomies and no words that were "reductionistic" like "experiment". All they had were nouns, words that modified nouns (like "blue") and a handful of common verbs like "walk" or "jump". I ask how can anyone with no more words than these invent abstractions/ beliefs but conversely how could anyone with beliefs not invent such words?

Ancient belief is a modern mirage and this is proven by the FACT that Egyptology never even noticed these attributes of the language. No Egyptologist ever even noticed that the language breaks linguistic laws including Zipf's Law. I only noticed because I solved the meaning and it is quite apparent from the meaning they had no concept of any abstractions. Everything they said was founded in scientific words and the grammar was the laws of nature. We see only our beliefs and they saw only what they knew. Our system works only because experiment is a good way to learn how reality works and their system worked because seeing what you knew made anomalies easily seen. Finding anomalies is about equivalent to scientific progress. Every citizen was a scientist and could potentially contribute to the commonweal. Women tended to be metaphysicians and men tended to be scientists but there was no hard and fast division. Everyone contributed and everyone worked.

Without the infrastructure of belief there could be no belief. We know they had no high tech because they lacked all such infrastructure and we know they had no beliefs because they lacked this infrastructure as well.

 

[gnostic]

Because this engineering which I discovered by reverse engineering simultaneously with solving the language is just that SIMPLE and OBVIOUS. That it is simple and obvious and that there is no reason it should ever have been forgotten begs the question of why wasn't it known today and how could it have ever been forgotten. All the clues are right there in our faces so we might have looked at the pyramids and said "they mustta used counterweights" but instead we looked and said "they mustta used ramps". The end of the post is an attempt to explain why we can't see what's right in front of our face and why it was forgotten.

Most of the best clues come from the ancient writing because without it we don't know what we are looking at. We need our beliefs to format what we see. If you want to see the Great Pyramid then you must change what you believe.

Again, with the bloody “ramps” strawman.

I didn’t bring up ramps...and yet you “think” I believe in the “ramp theory”.

I don’t really care if ramps were used OR NOT. I have no theory about ramp or otherwise, cladking. I have told you in the very beginning when I had first joined and posted in this thread, I don’t give crap if ramps were used or not.

So stopped using this strawman on me.

And I have read the Pyramid Texts, and I know not even once, didn’t any of these texts provide instruction manuals of how the pyramids were to be built.

Beside that, the Great Pyramid or Pyramid of Khufu didn’t contain the Pyramid Texts, like the later dynasties (pyramids of the 5th and 6th dynasties).

The only indication of how they may have been built the Great Pyramid (Khufu’s) were found hieroglyphs outside the pyramids, from the builders themselves, which were found in cave near Wadi el-Jarf.

They are papyri, and seemed to be logbooks of construction, detailing that of Khufu’s pyramid. They were by a man named Merer, a building inspector or supervisor.

I have not read these translations of the papyri, so I don’t know the contents of what were written, but what I did get, was that these were written during the last several months of construction, nearing the end of construction. They don’t detail the beginning and middle of construction.

Until I have read the translations of these papyri and know more of the contents, I couldn’t really say how they built these pyramids.

But the Pyramid Texts were not written by builders, like Merer’s logbooks.

 

[ChristineM]

They had no abstractions!!! None of their words were abstractions.

They didn't lack a word here and there like "belief" or "thought" they lacked every single abstraction. Our language is chock full of abstractions like the word "animal" for instance. There is no such thing as an "animal" there are only rabbits, tigers, and fish. There were no categories or "types". There were no taxonomies and no words that were "reductionistic" like "experiment". All they had were nouns, words that modified nouns (like "blue") and a handful of common verbs like "walk" or "jump". I ask how can anyone with no more words than these invent abstractions/ beliefs but conversely how could anyone with beliefs not invent such words?

Ancient belief is a modern mirage and this is proven by the FACT that Egyptology never even noticed these attributes of the language. No Egyptologist ever even noticed that the language breaks linguistic laws including Zipf's Law. I only noticed because I solved the meaning and it is quite apparent from the meaning they had no concept of any abstractions. Everything they said was founded in scientific words and the grammar was the laws of nature. We see only our beliefs and they saw only what they knew. Our system works only because experiment is a good way to learn how reality works and their system worked because seeing what you knew made anomalies easily seen. Finding anomalies is about equivalent to scientific progress. Every citizen was a scientist and could potentially contribute to the commonweal. Women tended to be metaphysicians and men tended to be scientists but there was no hard and fast division. Everyone contributed and everyone worked.

Without the infrastructure of belief there could be no belief. We know they had no high tech because they lacked all such infrastructure and we know they had no beliefs because they lacked this infrastructure as well.

To say you know is pretty far out there considering what you have is belief that you know.

I study the cro magnon era a hobby, (more ancient than ancient Egypt *more later). They had no writing but they certainly knew how to draw animals, even abstractions of animals. The artists were a group of people who migrated between northern Spain and, southern France. What you are saying is they made those journeys without the belief that their destination would be there?

Another point, my cat, no language, no infrastructure of belief by your reckoning. Yet she believes wholeheartedly that if i im in the kitchen and she sits with a begging paw then i will give her a treat.

Now for Egypt. Are you saying the Pharohs had no belief in their afterlife??? The major town in ancient Egypt employed a police force to investigate crime and sort out disputes, are you saying that they gad no belief that crime and disputes occured but employed a police force just in case (think on that)

Have you actually studied Egypt? Or is it just an idea you hold dear?

 

[cladking]

Again, with the bloody “ramps” strawman.

You get Egyptologists to quit believing in ramps and I'll quit saying they BELIEVE IN RAMPS.

Good luck with that. They brand ramps right into their brains.

And I have read the Pyramid Texts, and I know not even once, didn’t any of these texts provide instruction manuals of how the pyramids were to be built.

This is a strawman.

The Pyramid Texts are the RITUALS read at the kings' ascension CEREMONIES. They are NOT an instruction manual and I NEVER SAID OTHERWISE.

The only indication of how they may have been built the Great Pyramid (Khufu’s) were found hieroglyphs outside the pyramids, from the builders themselves, which were found in cave near Wadi el-Jarf.

No!!! This is nonsense. Every single thing learned from this diary was already known OR it contradicts Egyptological theory.

Egyptologists see ramps everywhere they look and they see them here as well. They don't see evidence anywhere they look and it is written off as irrelevancies.

Until I have read the translations of these papyri and know more of the contents, I couldn’t really say how they built these pyramids.

It appears Merer operated a tugboat that was used to load barges with Turah limestone PROBABLY for use at Giza and PROBABLY to clad G1 or possibly G2. This tugboat was probably one of four or five and was able to take a stone or two to Giza when it was needed there.

But the Pyramid Texts were not written by builders, like Merer’s logbooks.

Merer was NOT a pyramid builder. He was the captain of a tugboat. He did perform some task at Giza but only in the capacity of a ship's captain. There is no evidence for ramps whatsoever in the diary and there is no evidence any stone was ever lifted on a great pyramid using ramps.


That superstitious and changeless bumpkins dragged tombs up ramps is the very foundation of Egyptological theory. But it appears EACH of these assumptions is wholly false. Because the assumptions are false they can't analyze the evidence properly. They can't see the steps inside G1 and they can't see why Meidum exists in its current state. We are all a victim of our beliefs and their beliefs are wrong. They can't even see that the Pyramid Texts was meant literally and are RITUAL AND NOT INCANTATION. It is probably impossible for Egyptology to be more wrong. Bad assumptions and bad methodology maker bad science and in this case they make no science at all.

 

[MNoBody]

ramps and copper/bronze chisels they say....laughable
make an ashlar from raw granite ....with a polished surface that way......
good luck
I worked with stone for decades and you won't find a modern stonecutter who would bother to do what the ancients did with apparent ease...and with consistent precision.
go ahead, try it out, we used to have a laugh by giving someone the tools and hey knock yerself out have fun.... modern man who thinks primitives did that with basic crude tools.

 

[cladking]

To say you know is pretty far out there considering what you have is belief that you know.

All anyone has is belief. And I seem to be the only person who knows this. How ironic that there is such a thing as visceral knowledge and it's the only TRUE knowledge. If you don't know something in your bones or guts you don't know it at all. Even if you know it in your guts it might be applicable to only yourself and it could possibly still be wrong. I know in my bones that the Egyptians didn't use ramps and that there's about a 70% chance the pyramids were built with linear funiculars so that I'm essentially correct about most of ancient Egypt.

I study the cro magnon era a hobby, (more ancient than ancient Egypt *more later). They had no writing but they certainly knew how to draw animals, even abstractions of animals. The artists were a group of people who migrated between northern Spain and, southern France. What you are saying is they made those journeys without the belief that their destination would be there?

I believe they were not abstractions at all but the way they saw these. Ancient people used three perspectives for drawing; scientific, colloquial, and vulgar. I believe you're probably looking at the scientific perspective but I'd have to see it to have an opinion.

Another point, my cat, no language, no infrastructure of belief by your reckoning. Yet she believes wholeheartedly that if i im in the kitchen and she sits with a begging paw then i will give her a treat.

She knows your attention means treats. It's very hard to say what holding up a paw means to her.

Now for Egypt. Are you saying the Pharohs had no belief in their afterlife??? The major town in ancient Egypt employed a police force to investigate crime and sort out disputes, are you saying that they gad no belief that crime and disputes occured but employed a police force just in case (think on that)

Crime is no abstraction. Intentionally transforming a well loved member of the community into a lifeless mass was "murder". Depriving a man of his wife, land, children, or valuables was a crime not an abstraction.

Have you actually studied Egypt? Or is it just an idea you hold dear?

Where do you think I got all this?

I have successfully reverse engineered the great pyramids by solving Ancient Language in context. I determined meanings simultaneously by assuming it was consistent in terms of its premises. I expected to learn the authors' premises and was surprised to find it all made perfect sense in terms of logic and what you call "natural law". I was surprised to find a mathematical and metaphysical language whose meaning can still be deduced simply by taking it LITERALLY. When they said "bring me the boat that flies up and alights" what they meant was "literally bring me the literal boat that literally flies up and literally alights.".

These are very difficult concepts for modern people because there are no metaphysical languages today and there are no languages that don't employ ANY SORT of abstraction. We use abstraction to format models of our beliefs and we see reality through these models. We see NOTHING directly. When you read this sentence you apply a definition to each word to find meaning and DON'T EVEN KNOW YOU'RE DOING IT. If you do this with metaphysical language the meaning evaporates. All that's left is a hodgepodge of words that looks like incantation. "Reading" Ancient Language is equival;ent to reading a mathematical equation without the brackets and operative signs. These" brackets and operative signs" were known to the speakers of Ancient Language but they are not known to Egyptologists. I had to deduce them and I did it by logic and the simultaneous solution of meaning. If you see 4, 4, 8 in the same context over and over you can deduce that it represents 4 + 4 = 8. But these were words instead of numbers. It worked because the language was bound by the exact same logic that underlies our mathematics. The grammar was the "laws of nature".

I know what it takes to move material and I know what it takes to deduce premises or meaning from what people say. There's no magic and there are no assumptions. Ancient people didn't unite in their superstition and stinky feet to drag tombs up ramps. It is we whom are superstitious. They didn't even understand the concept of "abstraction".

 

[ChristineM]

All anyone has is belief. And I seem to be the only person who knows this. How ironic that there is such a thing as visceral knowledge and it's the only TRUE knowledge. If you don't know something in your bones or guts you don't know it at all. Even if you know it in your guts it might be applicable to only yourself and it could possibly still be wrong. I know in my bones that the Egyptians didn't use ramps and that there's about a 70% chance the pyramids were built with linear funiculars so that I'm essentially correct about most of ancient Egypt.

The only person... Does that not tell you something?

visceral? You mean imagination rather than intellect? Yes makes sense

Ever heard of the Dunning Kruger effect?

I believe they were not abstractions at all but the way they saw these. Ancient people used three perspectives for drawing; scientific, colloquial, and vulgar. I believe you're probably looking at the scientific perspective but I'd have to see it to have an opinion.

I believe you have no compensation of reality. Abstraction is not and has never been an option for human beings. It is this ability to think abstract thoughts that has helped give us our edgr

She knows your attention means treats. It's very hard to say what holding up a paw means to her.

Wrong, what about when she is getting no attention.

Crime is no abstraction. Intentionally transforming a well loved member of the community into a lifeless mass was "murder". Depriving a man of his wife, land, children, or valuables was a crime not an abstraction.

But investigating those crimes requires abstract thoughts

Where do you think I got all this?

I have no idea but it bares no relation to knowledge of ancient Egypt

I have successfully reverse engineered the great pyramids

Ahh i see a Novel prize in this for you when you publish.

 

[cladking]

ramps and copper/bronze chisels they say....laughable
make an ashlar from raw granite ....with a polished surface that way......
good luck
I worked with stone for decades and you won't find a modern stonecutter who would bother to do what the ancients did with apparent ease...and with consistent precision.
go ahead, try it out, we used to have a laugh by giving someone the tools and hey knock yerself out have fun.... modern man who thinks primitives did that with basic crude tools.

A lot of people with practical knowledge of almost anything find current theory obscure. The head of the Indiana Limestone Manufacturers said it would be almost impossible to ramp up production even in 20 years to build a pyramid, ie-in 20 years we might be able to begin construction. We have modern rail lines but they aren't built for these sorts of loads. The bridges aren't built for these loads either. The quarries require time to obtain equipment and train workers. Indiana supplies more than half of all the limestone used in the US last time I looked. Cement limestone comes from all over though.

The engineering that went into these structures is remarkable. Indeed, G1 sits right next to a cliff face that might have sheared off except the builders left almost exactly the same margin for error that we employ.

Yes, there is a very remarkable precision to much of what they built and Egyptologists ignore this and its implications. There is both an implication that some of it was done by machine and that there was a NEED for it to be precise. There's plenty of other evidence that simple machines were used broadly but in almost every case Egyptologists deny them the ability or knowledge to even use something as simple as the "wheel". Remarkably the pyramids are PROVEN to be older than Egyptologists still believe and the wheel still pre-dates the pyramid by ten centuries!!!

The state of Egyptology is hard to believe because they pass themselves off as being "scientific". But their methodology is straight out of the dark ages. They do not take input and they do not take criticism. I no longer worry about hurting anyone's feelings because they just don't care. They dismiss even scientists as amateurs so you can imagine how much mind they pay me. Meanwhile the Peers have not been all;owed access to the infrared data that is already nearly a century late. This technology could have been employed back in the 1920's but it was not. They are still talking about ramps even though they not only lack evidence but they also have positive evidence there were no ramps but we're not allowed to see it and peers aren't allowed to see it either.

Yet nobody cares.

 

[MNoBody]

Yet nobody cares.

you got that right

 

[MNoBody]

this is interesting...... you may have seen this before, i don't know, in any case it presents a whole new set of data points
Pyramids – Geopolymer Institute

 

[cladking]

Ever heard of the Dunning Kruger effect?

Everybody always suffers this.

Someday "Egyptologists" will be the punchline of every joke. "What do you have in your refrigerator if there are stinky footprints in the butter?"

Abstraction is not and has never been an option for human beings.

If I am correct language is the programming for the brain. Ancient Language HAD NO ABSTRACTIONS.

It is this ability to think abstract thoughts that has helped give us our edgr

It looks that way from here but have you ever heard of Dunning Kruger?

It is ONLY complex language that allows the passing of knowledge from one generation to the next. The FIRST complex language was an elaboration on a natural metaphysical language that created 40,000 years of scientific progress. As it grew more complex more and more slower people couldn't keep up and pidgin languages arose.

It is language and its redheaded stepdaughter "science" that have made us successful. Abstraction is mostly irrelevant except we all use them.

But investigating those crimes requires abstract thoughts

No it doesn't. Reverse engineering a crime requires no abstraction.

Ahh i see a Novel prize in this for you when you publish.

The pyramid pales in comparison to everything that goes with this. We will need ancient science to survive this century and it's still there complete under the NE corner of G1.

There are many implications of this that are each far more important than how the pyramids were built. This changes every paradigm and ties us to our ancestors. It will tie us more closely with our own humanity and it will underlie science going forward. The implications are staggering. But I'm not sure I'm eligible for ANY sort of prize because these are pretty much all "rediscoveries" rather than anything new. Our history all the way back to Adam and Eve awaits us. The history of ancient and modern metaphysics will become clear. The nature of language, thought, and consciousness itself will finally be able to be studied for the first time. Even the ancients couldn't understand language and consciousness simultaneously; forget thought, they didn't even have a word for it. Modern "knowledge" is shown to be conditional and based solely on a perspective that is irrelevant to the study of reality and science.

It will be years before anyone even begins to understand all the implications and are able to predict the myriad effects on science, belief, and scientific belief. It might be a century before all the babies tossed out with the bathwater are gathered back. It's a great time to be a child. Especially if you're big enough to not get lost in the bathwater and are very careful about what you choose to believe.

 

[cladking]

this is interesting...... you may have seen this before, i don't know, in any case it presents a whole new set of data points
Pyramids – Geopolymer Institute

I've read several such articles.

I believe there was some such geopolymer knowledge and application but I doubt it was widespread. I believe there is a natural travertine deposited in place that is sometimes mistaken for cement.

The geopolymer theories have been dealt a series of significant blows over the last ten years. I don't dismiss them but it appears improbable that any great pyramid consists chiefly of such a material.

There are going to be a lot more data points if Egyptology ever starts studying the pyramids or allowing scientists to do so.

 

[cladking]

you got that right

That was for your benefit.