1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Ancient Reality

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by cladking, Mar 31, 2018.

  1. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,648
    Ratings:
    +256
    Religion:
    not applicable
    A response to this statement in another thread wouldn't be appropriate there.
    You keep getting hung up in semantics. Semantics is one of the chief ways we use to create our circular arguments and some use it to demolish other arguments. But semantics isn't real, it's just words. Words are chiefly for communication when we aren't thinking so we should all try to follow the other guys thinking more andf the words less. If I say there is no elephant in the xxxxx and no species like the elephant in it either then there are countless ways I can "PROVE" it. For instance if I can show the entire xxxxx and no elephant is visible then we can categorically state there's no elephant. It has been proven there's no elephant in the xxxxx when the "xxxxx" is defined as a teacup. I said the word "belief" does not exist in ancient literature and none of the synonyms for "belief" exist in ancient literature.

    You can start here;

    site:sacred-texts.com utterance belief

    Simply put this in any search engine you'll get no hits in the Pyramid Texts.

    This is because The Pyramid Texts is not about death and superstious nonsense as is widely believed today. The Pyramid Texts are actually just a silly little book of rituals read at the kings' ascension ceremonies during pyramid building season. The PT is about life and its celebration even as the king is being transformed into a mnemonic to be remembered in heaven and earth. The king lives eternally as the pyramid and his history and all human history is recorded in the stars.

    Count the words in the PT. They are about life.

    There was no religion of any sort. Simple logic will tell you man couldn't survive on an untamed planet using superstition and magic. People no longer care about logic; they care about semantics because they don't have to think about semantics but they would have to think if they understood opposing arguments.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,532
    Ratings:
    +2,815
    I totally agree on what you are trying to over come!!! But good luck without it falling into linguistic semantical gymnastics. I will post a small video here of David Abram on this topic.



    David is a highly qualified individual for being a professor, but has managed to avoid that as a life path. I find that curious. I also find his personal engagement with the landscape, with nature, with aboriginal cultures as a traveling magician, being highly educated, from long island of all places, and jewish incredibly interesting. He also was close friend with both arn Ness, and Thomas Berry. David is a part of a movement in the environmental movement called Deep Ecology. John Muir my favourite at articulation can be considered part of that as well amongst others. Deep Ecology is a something different from the sustainability movement which we today define environmentalism.
     
  3. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    8,846
    Ratings:
    +8,370
    Religion:
    Pluralist Hindu
    This post makes no sense
     
    • Like Like x 6
    • Winner Winner x 5
    • Useful Useful x 1
  4. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,648
    Ratings:
    +256
    Religion:
    not applicable
    Thanks for the post. The man is remarkably insightful and is speaking of a subject closely related to what I'm talking about. i had never realized the importance of writing before but, yes, he's right that writing is much of the impact of modern superstition in individuals. It is the means by which we most easily recall learning and the easiest means to learn. People speaking modern language want definitions, descriptions and pictures (drawings) and they have the most impact in the written form. Writing something down solidifies it in our memory.

    But the major cause of problems is language itself. Everything we say is open to interpretation. We have to give up the language we were born with to acquire modern analog language and this language programs our minds. It forces us to think in analog terms and forces us to think linearly. We have a train of thought where animals and ancient man think in three dimensions. It is this three dimensionality that causes us to misinterpret Ancient Language as being full of "puns". There more akin to train tracks overlapping than "puns". The tracks of ancient thought led to the meaning of every utterance.

    Humans are the "odd man out" in nature because every other species, every other individual everything, is tuned to nature/ ecology/ the cycles of reality. Reality of life is about individuals whereas the reality of nature itself is the interplay of the logic that governs everything from math to all other animal languages.
    Modern language sets everything backward. When we speak we assume shared perspective which is at infinite distance in real time. We assume each listener is familiar with referents and has the same object as the referent. Even the listener assumes all this. Communication breaks down in every single case as proven by "chinese telephone".

    How ironic that writing was invented to record modern language which arose around 3500 BC. It used the exact same vocabulary as Ancient Language but was formatted the way we speak. It was invented because science had become so complex the slower people could not use it and needed an alternative. Modern language was a pidgin form of ancient Language and to communicate with them it was necessary to write it down because modern language changes as it is repeated.
    It was modern language and the superstitions promoted by it that caused the dark ages beginning in 2000 BC when the old language collapsed. It was science invented some 400 years ago that has started to bring back the light.

    But make no mistake. We haven't really caught up with ancient science yet. The pyramid builders knew the speed of light and many other things that we might not know yet. A tool determines the job it can do and modern science is merely a tool. Ancient science was a different tool used in a different way. Ancient understanding was based on ancient metaphysics and this metaphysics resonated with nature and employed the exact same logic as reality itself and mathematics.

    We must continue with analog language because our science is far too complex for humans to understand its digitized form. But this doesn't mean we can't learn and understand things from other perspectives. It doesn't mean we can't better understand metaphysics to better understand modern science. There's no reason that specialists can't reinvent ancient science using the headstart of the PT and modern science as a guide. Ancient science employed far more manhours over a far longer time to be invented. It probably still has things to teach us.

    You can't see it if you can't believe your own eyes and look at the reality that is ancient Egypt. Not the nonsense printed in book because every single word of it is wrong. There wasn't even a word for "belief" in Ancient Language.
     
  5. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,648
    Ratings:
    +256
    Religion:
    not applicable
    There are no elephants in tea cups and there were no ancient beliefs.

    They didn't even have the word "belief" or any of it's synonyms.

    This is Proof that there were no ancient beliefs. Semantics are irrelevant. These are verifiable facts stated as tautologies.
     
  6. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,648
    Ratings:
    +256
    Religion:
    not applicable
    There are more verifiable facts that people don't like and are far more glaring problems than simply the lack of ancient belief.

    There exists no word for "ramp" in the great pyramid building age. Instead the people spoke of boats that flew up and alit and stones that flew like the fledglings of swallow. Old Arab accounts refer to flying stone as well.

    There is no direct evidence for great pyramids being tombs and the PT specifically, repeatedly, and coherently said the king was not buried in the earth or in a pyramid. It suggest he was cremated and specifically says he ascended to heaven on the smoke of incense.

    If the people weren't superstitious as these rituals imply then obviously they were scientists and metaphysicians and the "words of the gods" was the source of their power exactly like they said.

    Obviously the language changed. Logically it changed everywhere and this was the birth of religion.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  7. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,532
    Ratings:
    +2,815
    Yes but... less words!!! Nature is the invisible elephant in the room while we stare at a little toy arguing. That's why I tend to retreat into the wilderness here on the oregon coast or at least.pull a Thoreau and go out to my Walden pond. I am not as Muir as I would like. Presence is a very interesting topic, I have retreated into? stepped forward to? Music is my medium to express and exploring American root music. Art sometimes is the best way to explain existence. It brings forward a sense of presence, a connection deeper. Ironic, nature is full of fiction, it's called camaflauge and yet we perceive that camouflage has nothing.to do with nature. Heraclitus said "nature loves to hide". Sometimes we are only rediscovering what was already understood we just put new clothing on it and "believe" it's totally original and now we really understand.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    8,846
    Ratings:
    +8,370
    Religion:
    Pluralist Hindu
    You want to talk about what pyramids were for? You don't believe that they were tombs?
    You can read Egyptian hieroglyphs? How can you know there were no word for belief?
     
  9. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    66,271
    Ratings:
    +23,938
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    That doesn't prove anything, save for lack of a word. Often times one language will have a word that describes a concept or emotion that is foreign and unknown in another language. However, it doesn't mean that concept and emotion doesn't exist in other cultures, it just means they are going about describing it in a different manner, if specifically at all.
    It's like LBGT debates, which will point out things like homosexual attractions and transgender people have always existed, but in past times they didn't understand or know of homosexuality or transgender as we do today. We barely have the same understanding of the word heterosexual and homosexual that we did 100 years ago, and, in fact, a heterosexual used to someone overly obsessed with sexual impulses and drives. Today we would say something like "hypersexual."
     
  10. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,648
    Ratings:
    +256
    Religion:
    not applicable
    I can agree that lack of any word meaning "belief" is not my best argument that ancient people weren't superstitious but I do believe that it is highly indicative. "Belief" is simply fundamental to our species today so its omission 5000 years ago is a major issue that Egyptology has never addressed.

    But the lack of the word still supports my interpretation of the evidence and my understanding of the language. Not having beliefs helps in understanding a language that doesn't even have the word. It also doesn't have words like "pretend" or "suppose". "Opinion", "faith", and "creed" are all lacking. We would be virtually tongue tied without such words and Egyptologist can use one or another in sentence after sentence sometimes in describing these people they believe are highly superstitious. The irony is sublime.

    Anyone trying to follow the argument can come back to this issue later and will likely agree that these omissions virtually arise to the level of proof. They spoke in tautologies and known theory because no one cared about "beliefs" and they lacked the word AND THE REFERENT. "Belief" simply wasn't possible if you think in digital language. What does a bird need with belief?
     
    #10 cladking, Apr 1, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
  11. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,648
    Ratings:
    +256
    Religion:
    not applicable
    The Pyramid Texts says over and over that the pyramids were not tombs. It goes on to say over and over that the pyramids were the king. It suggests he was cremated on the east side of the first step in a funeral pyre called an "iskn".

    There is no direct evidence of any sort that any great pyramid was designed for or used as a tomb.

    First off, the language of the Pyramid Texts has never been solved. Secondly it can't be "read" and never will because it's written in a different type of language. The skills to understand it are not well described as "reading". This language can not be translated into English or any modern language.

    It only looks like our language because it has been solved in terms of the book of the dead from later and it uses the same vocabulary. Modern language simply uses the same vocabulary as Ancient Language. This masks the meaning because the book of the dead really is derived from the Pyramid Texts. The PT was an ancient holy book that wasn't understood so they modeled their new ideas and beliefs around it. Science was lost when Ancient Language imploded.

    Put the search string in google. There will be no hits showing the words didn't exist in Mercer's translation.
    I'm not very familiar with hieroglyphs but I know where many of the glyphs originated and what they really mean. Egyptologists don't realize it's important to know things like why "djed" means stable and enduring ort why "ankh" means life but I do. We'll never get a proper interpretation of the PT until such things are understood. Right now it is incomprehensible gobbledty gook and every Egyptologist believes it is just incantation.

    It is not incantation. They are so obviously wrong I can't imagine how they made this error;

    868c. Now be still, hear it, this word which is said: "N.,

    There is line after line after line of instructions to the individual reading it and to the crowds listening to him read it. It is just a silly little book of ritual. They got it all wrong. They got it wrong because you can't "read" or "parse" Ancient Language. It loses its meaning if you try to take it apart to read or study. Ancient people didn't think like Egyptologists. They thought like falcons, lions, and snakes.
     
  12. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,648
    Ratings:
    +256
    Religion:
    not applicable
    I used to live without really noticing nature. Oh, sure, I watched it but never really even tried to understand it and its inner working.

    One of these days I'll tell the story about how I nearly became dinner for an alligator. :eek:
     
  13. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,532
    Ratings:
    +2,815
    Ha! That would have been a common daily thing we would have been directly aware of long ago. I spend a lot of time out primitive camping. A friend asked "what about bears" I said based on where I camp statistically you riding your goldwing is far more dangerous. We are both serious motorcyclists, he concurred.
     
  14. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    66,271
    Ratings:
    +23,938
    Religion:
    God is in the Rain
    Not really. There is a short coming in you position in regards to Egyptian beliefs--and how they were beliefs--such as when Amon was merged with Ra to become Amon-Ra (and, of course, Ra who was merged with Horus), and their Book of the Dead describing passages and rituals performed for the dead in regards to what they believed would happen in the afterlife.
     
  15. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    8,846
    Ratings:
    +8,370
    Religion:
    Pluralist Hindu
    Oh very well, you interpret it then. Since you apparently know what they truly mean. And you know all this, how?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  16. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,648
    Ratings:
    +256
    Religion:
    not applicable
    Every other individual who ever tried to translate or interpret the PT went into with preconceptions. These preconceptions were that the people who wrote it were primitive and superstitious. They believed the pyramids were tombs built with ramps. They believed ancient Egyptians had numerous gods and believed in magic. They believed that the writing shouldn't make much sense because it was magical and religious. They believed that since the vocabulary was just like ours that meaning was expressed by a sentence in the exact same way ours is. They believed that science works because of logic. They believed humans invented math.

    I had NONE of these beliefs.

    I had my own preconceptions. I believed everyone has always made perfect sense in terms of their premises. Indeed, this was why I began reading the PT; I knew that the authors knew how the pyramids were built and I was hoping that by deducing their premises that that means would become apparent. Like ALL homo omnisciencis I found EXACTLY what I expected. No one could be more surprised than I because all of my beliefs were challenged by what I found. I thought everyone was seeking the truth and that anyone could see it when it was shown to them. This is essentially true but everyone is only able to find the truth that agrees with their premises and even scientists can't see reality when it's sitting on the tip of their nose. So my truth is very very different than anyone else's truth. But my truth makes predictions about almost everything and explains everything. It is simply ancient science and a new perspective.

    The PT says there should be a thermal anomaly on the east side of G1 near the NE corner. That anomaly was found in October, 2015.

    I used modern science, deduction, mathematics, and mostly google to solve the Pyramid texts. It was all driven by intuition and google searches. The method was really quite simple; I solved the meaning of each word in context. In every instance I asked what does this word have to mean in order to be logical, fit in context and preserve the consistency of the entire PT. I solved the words one at a time. I solved the meaning of each of the "gods" (each god was really a theory)(by their standards each "god" was really an observational fact)(the two sciences are different and can't be reconciled outside of mathematics).

    It was really pretty easy or I couldn't have done it. Once you solve a word every sentence in which it appears makes more sense and allows other words in the sentence to be solved. Once a pattern emerged it was obvious this language is formatted differently than ours. It was obvious anyone speaking in this way had to think in that way as well.

    It was the way they thought that made them powerful and wise. All human knowledge was literally on the tip of their tongue. They blended into nature like a songbird and danced to its tune. There is even an utterance (#473) that describes the dance with nature that made pyramids. "Those who were powerful by means of their mouth" (spirits well-equipped by reason of their mouth) were just CO2 bubbles.

    Ancient Language was the metaphysics of ancient science. It made them powerful and a force of nature.

    We are mere children compared to them in many ways.

    But the ability to grow up and grow out of our omniscience is at hand. We are literally at the threshold of understanding if we can summon the courage to knock.
     
    #16 cladking, Apr 1, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2018
  17. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,648
    Ratings:
    +256
    Religion:
    not applicable
    You must remember that nothing from later times has any bearing at all on the PT.

    The people who wrote the book of the dead were superstitious bumpkins just like us but the authors of the PT were scientists and metaphysicians; they were nexialists virtually by definition.

    Compound "gods" were simply consideration of two phenomena simultaneously. "Amun" was reality itself or a consideration of all phenomena at the same time. But reality was axiomatic so the word "amun" wasn't used as modern language speakers would use it. "Amun" was used when considering the "big picture" and that is why amun means "the hidden".
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  18. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,648
    Ratings:
    +256
    Religion:
    not applicable
    I was at Oleno state park in Florida. I was standing on a catwalk watching the river go under the ground and thinking I could just jump on the log a few feet out and it was a few more steps to the waters edge. Just about the time I was going to jump a guy walked up and said 'beautiful specimen isn't it". I had no idea what he meant but he kept repeating it. I was about ready to go when he said "the gator, beautiful specimen isn't it". On closer inspection the first step off the catwalk would have been my last because it was a 10' alligator rather than a mossy log. There were no warning signs other than that all the Floridians were standing on the far side of the catwalk.

    The human race would never have survived in a wild world with nothing to deal with it other than superstition and magic. Obviously they had 40,000 years of science to help them through. This was a complex science which even allowed the computation of the speed of light.
     
  19. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2005
    Messages:
    29,091
    Ratings:
    +14,880
    Religion:
    Beyond the Light
    Let me know when the people call about your coming Nobel prize.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  20. cladking

    cladking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,648
    Ratings:
    +256
    Religion:
    not applicable
    If I get credit for my own discovery I'll be eligible for a prize in almost every subject.

    Of course the prizes really should go to the ancient scientists and metaphysicians who made my discovery possible.
     
Loading...