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America Is Already There

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I favor cultivating more positive attitudes to lift us from this mess.

I had the positive attitude that Hillary Clinton would win in 2016.
I had the positive attitude that Trump would after all be much better than I expected.
I had the positive attitude that people would wear masks and take COVID seriously.
I had the positive attitude that RBG would live until Biden gets inaugurated.
I had the positive attitude that my wife would not have cancer after all.

And so forth.

And with all that, I do have a long term positive attitude which is different from refusing to acknowledge the big hole we're in and how we're continuing to dig.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I Lived Through Collapse.
America Is Already There.

How life goes on, surrounded by death - by Indi Samarajiva

I lived through the end of a civil war. Do you know what it was like for me? Quite normal. I went to work, I went out, I dated. This is what Americans don’t understand. They’re waiting to get personally punched in the face while ash falls from the sky. That’s not how it happens.

This is how it happens. Precisely what you’re feeling now. The numbing litany of bad news. The ever rising outrages. People suffering, dying, and protesting all around you, while you think about dinner.

If you’re trying to carry on while people around you die, your society is not collapsing. It’s already fallen down.

What Life Was Like For Me

I was looking through some old photos for this article and the mix is shocking to me now. Almost offensive. There’s a burnt body in front of my office. Then I’m playing Scrabble with friends. There’s bomb smoke rising in front of the mall. Then I’m at a concert. There’s a long line for gas. Then I’m at a nightclub. This is all within two weeks.

Today I’m like, ‘did we live like this?’ But we did. I mean, I did. Was I a rich Colombo ****boi while poorer people died? Well, yes. I wrote about it, but who cares.

The real question is, who are you? I mean, you’re reading this. You have the leisure to ponder American collapse like it’s even a question. The people really experiencing it already know.

So I’m telling you, as someone who’s been there, in similar shoes to yours; this is it. America has already collapsed. What you’re feeling is exactly how it feels. It’s Saturday and you’re thinking about food while the world is on fire. This is normal. This is life during collapse. Just read what it says on the tin:

LIFE! Now with 20% MORE DEATH!

Collapse does not mean you’re personally dying right now. It means y’all are dying right now. Death is sometimes close, sometimes far away, but always there. Usually for someone else, but someday, randomly, for you. I used to judge those herds of gazelle when the lion just eats one of them alive and everyone keeps going but, no, humans are just like that. That’s the real meaning of herd immunity. We’re fundamentally immune to giving a ****.

It honestly becomes mundane (for the privileged). As Colombo kids we used to go out, worry about money, fall in love — it all went on. We’d pop the trunk for a bomb check. Turn off our lights for the air raids. I’m not saying that we were untouched. My friend’s dad was killed, just gone with a land mine. RIP Uncle Nihal. I know people who were beaten, arrested, went into exile. But that’s not what my photostream looks like. It was mostly food and parties and normal stuff for a dumb 20-something.

If you’re waiting for a moment where you’re like ‘this is it’, I’m telling you, it never comes. Nobody comes on TV and says ‘things are officially bad’. There’s no launch party for decay. It’s just a pileup of outrages and atrocities in between friendships and weddings and perhaps an unusual amount of alcohol.

Perhaps you’re waiting for some moment when the adrenaline kicks in and you’re fighting the virus or fascism all the time, but it’s not like that. Life is not a movie, and if it was, you’re certainly not the star. You’re just an extra. If something good or bad happens to you it’ll be random and no one will care. If you’re unlucky you’re a statistic. If you’re lucky, no one notices you at all.

Collapse is just a series of ordinary days in between extraordinary bull****, most of it happening to someone else. That’s all it is.

One Ordinary Day
One day, I was at work when someone left a bomb at the bag check at NOLIMIT. It exploded, killing 17 people who were out shopping. I experienced this as the phone lines getting clogged for an hour. My wife experienced it as, well, a bomb, it was 500m from her house. 17 families experienced it as the end. And their grief goes on.

As you can see, this is not a uniform experience of chaos. For some people it destroys their bodies, others their hearts, but for most people it’s just a low level hum at the back of their minds.

What’s that buzzing sound you hear now?

Today I assume you went to work. Bad news was everywhere, clogging up your social media, your conversations. Maybe it struck close to you. I’m sorry. Somewhere in your country, a thousand people died. I’m sorry for each of them. A thousand families are grieving tonight. A thousand more join them every day. The pain doesn’t go away, it just becomes a furniture of bones, in a thousand thousand homes.

As a nation you don’t seem to mourn your dead, but their families do. Their communities do. Jesus, also, weeps. But for most people it’s just another day. You’ve run out of coffee. There’s a funny meme. This can’t be collapse, because nothing’s collapsing for me.

But that’s exactly how collapse feels. This is how I felt. This is how millions of people have felt, including many immigrants in your midst. We’re trying to tell you as loud as we can. You can get out of it, but you have to understand where you are to even turn around. This, I fear, is one (of many) things Americans do not understand. You tell yourself American collapse is impossible. Meanwhile, look around.

In the last three months America has lost more people than Sri Lanka lost in 30 years of civil war. If this isn’t collapse, then the word has no meaning. You probably still think of Sri Lanka as a ****hole, though the war ended over a decade ago and we’re (relatively) fine. Then what does that make you?

America has fallen. You need to look up, at the people you’re used to looking down on. We’re trying to tell you something. I have lived through collapse and you’re already there. Until you understand this, you only have further to fall.

People have been singing about America's demise for well over 50 years now (see lyrics below). Many of us have known it all along. Anyone who thinks this all started within the past 3-4 years has obviously not been paying attention (which is also the reason why we keep having problems).

We starve-look
At one another
Short of breath
Walking proudly in our winter coats
Wearing smells from laboratories
Facing a dying nation
Of moving paper fantasy
Listening for the new told lies
With supreme visions of lonely tunes

Somewhere
Inside something there is a rush of
Greatness
Who knows what stands in front of
Our lives
I fashion my future on films in space
Silence
Tells me secretly
Everything
Everything

Manchester England England
Manchester England England
Eyes look your last
Across the Atlantic Sea
Arms take your last
embrace
And I'm a genius genius
And lips oh you the
doors of breath
I believe in God
Seal with a righteous kiss
And I believe that God believes in Claude
Seal with a righteous kiss
That's me, that's me, that's me
The rest is silence
The rest is silence
The rest is silence

Singing
Our space songs on a spider web sitar
Life is around you and in you
Answer for Timothy Leary, dearie

Let the sunshine
Let the sunshine in
The sunshine in
Let the sunshine
Let the sunshine in
The sunshine in
Let the sunshine
Let the sunshine in
The sun shine in...
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
He's saying life doesn't have to be all doom and gloom. Because even now it's not. A lot of things suck right now, but being grateful and appreciating even just a few things in your life is a basic block of coping with hard times and finding more than an existence full of crap. Yes. We are concerning themselves with dinner. Most people do because they need to unless thier own personal situation at the moment prohibits it. Especially if you can chose what you're going to eat for dinner. That makes you way better off than a significant chunk of the world's human population. Enjoy it.

But that seems to be part of the point of the OP: that even in the face of societal collapse, most people are just fine most of the time.

To ignore the collapse because it is depressing means we won't actually manage to do anything about it.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
People have been singing about America's demise for well over 50 years now (see lyrics below). Many of us have known it all along. Anyone who thinks this all started within the past 3-4 years has obviously not been paying attention (which is also the reason why we keep having problems).

We starve-look
At one another
Short of breath
Walking proudly in our winter coats
Wearing smells from laboratories
Facing a dying nation
Of moving paper fantasy
Listening for the new told lies
With supreme visions of lonely tunes

Somewhere
Inside something there is a rush of
Greatness
Who knows what stands in front of
Our lives
I fashion my future on films in space
Silence
Tells me secretly
Everything
Everything

Manchester England England
Manchester England England
Eyes look your last
Across the Atlantic Sea
Arms take your last
embrace
And I'm a genius genius
And lips oh you the
doors of breath
I believe in God
Seal with a righteous kiss
And I believe that God believes in Claude
Seal with a righteous kiss
That's me, that's me, that's me
The rest is silence
The rest is silence
The rest is silence

Singing
Our space songs on a spider web sitar
Life is around you and in you
Answer for Timothy Leary, dearie

Let the sunshine
Let the sunshine in
The sunshine in
Let the sunshine
Let the sunshine in
The sunshine in
Let the sunshine
Let the sunshine in
The sun shine in...

I love that song. And yes, the society was collapsing at that point. But we managed to pull ourselves out of the muck (a bit). The question is whether we will this time.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Likeability and charisma are skills people ought to invest in.
Likeability says nothing about your ability to do the job. It needs to be devalued in favor of more objective and sound measurements.
Charisma, again it really says nothing, other than that people who get ahead with their charisma are also likely to get into trouble over their charisma.
They've managed to convince somebody they are worth what they are being paid. People are free to pay someone else whatever they feel they are worth. That's no skin off my nose. That's up to the person paying to make sure they are getting their money's worth.
Lots of people do feel those like actors and athletes are overpaid while teachers deserve more.
Financial compensation does not reflect any pragmatic or value-based distribution, amd it often doesn't follow the conventional means that we are taught get you ahead. You're more likely to become a millionaire playing the lottery than you are the normal avenues of hard work.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Well, you're not the one paying them. :cool:

Wouldn't you want the freedom to pay a person whatever you feel they ought to be paid? I mean if you have the money. Maybe you see a lot of value in this person. Something the rest of us can't see. Especially someone you want to keep doing whatever job they are doing for you. Otherwise, someone else may offer them more are they are gone.
It should not be so common that people who could be working in healthcare field, or as teachers, or other positions of high value to society make more doing things like rideshare driving and bar tending.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
And that isn't going to happen by pretending it's not what it is. Or by pretending that it's not as bad as it is, and getting worse every day.
No one is trying to pretend otherwise.
But it is unhealthy to obsess over the doom and gloom. It becomes a feedback loop of a self fulfilling prophecy. Dont worry, be happy is crappy advice, but so is getting too focused on the downs. Amd it is a part of what drives the dividing wedge when a society becomes collectively obsessed with it, and it is great for spawning fanatics who learn to fear their own shadow.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
But that seems to be part of the point of the OP: that even in the face of societal collapse, most people are just fine most of the time.

To ignore the collapse because it is depressing means we won't actually manage to do anything about it.
By what extent do we know and mean ignoring it? If it's something you have no control or power over it, if your worry will achieve nothing, if there is nothing you can do, accepting it as reality is probably the best you can do.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
this-is-fine.0.jpg
One needn't dwell in extremes, ie, the false choice of things going
to Heck in a handbasket or they're hunky dory. To be aware, but
not dysfunctionally emotionally invested is my favored option.
What has your angst & hostility accomplished anyway?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I love that song. And yes, the society was collapsing at that point. But we managed to pull ourselves out of the muck (a bit). The question is whether we will this time.

I think it's possible. I think people were starting to think along the lines of solutions and reforms during that era, but when the people elected Reagan in 1980, it all changed. That's where we went wrong and continued down the path that led us to where we are now.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I find the problem to be in how wealth is distributed. I don't entertainers should be paid more than a teacher, doctor, farmer, those keeping us basically alive and passing to us the knowledge to keep things going.
I'm glad you don't run a command economy.
Poker players would earn top dollar.
And pro baseball players would be eyeballing
you for a Joe Pesci experience.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I had the positive attitude that Hillary Clinton would win in 2016.
I had the positive attitude that Trump would after all be much better than I expected.
I had the positive attitude that people would wear masks and take COVID seriously.
I had the positive attitude that RBG would live until Biden gets inaugurated.
I had the positive attitude that my wife would not have cancer after all.

And so forth.

And with all that, I do have a long term positive attitude which is different from refusing to acknowledge the big hole we're in and how we're continuing to dig.
Positivity is good for the immune system.
And as I had to explain to FH, having that doesn't
mean one isn't aware of problems. Just that one
needn't continually cry & rage over life's visicitudes.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
One thing sending us to "rock bottom" is all the negativity,
hostility, anger, & obsession with imagining how bad things
are & will get. It's an unstable feedback loop.
I agree with you. We need to keep fighting. But part of that, is we also need to quit being in denial, such as not believing Trump isn't serious about not handing over power peacefully. Being in denial, is a form of giving up too.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I agree with you. We need to keep fighting. But part of that, is we also need to quit being in denial, such as not believing Trump isn't serious about not handing over power peacefully. Being in denial, is a form of giving up too.
The left seems to believe that being positive is about
giving up or being in denial. One can still be politically
aware & involved, without constant hand wringing.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The left seems to believe that being positive is about
giving up or being in denial. One can still be politically
aware & involved, without constant hand wringing.
I don't think this is about the "left". You have also many traditional conservative republicans fully recognizing the real and present danger before us with Trump. This is not "hand wringing". This is legitimate concern based upon long lists of valid reasons, both currently, and historically. It concerns me that your denialism about things which are, club you over the head real, genuine threats to democracy, are not some form of denial. I get it. You don't want it to be true. I don't either. But ****, it is real.

Have no doubt, this election with Trump, and the months following his hopeful defeat, will be an absolute ****-show. That's not hysterics. It's clear-minded reality. This is not going to end well. Yet, I remain an optimist. If everyone gets onboard in believing we can overcome, then there is hope. Denying the threat is real, is not optimism. It's escape. It fails completely to give others hope.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Denying the threat is real, is not optimism. It's escape. It fails completely to give others hope.
And wallowing in the threat is not realism, it's despair, and it too fails completely to give others hope. Effective optimism is not some pollyannaish expectation about the outcome of some specific battle, but the conviction that people are fundamentally good and that, to quote MLK, “the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.” And the task is to keep on moving forward along that arc.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I don't think this is about the "left". You have also many traditional conservative republicans fully recognizing the real and present danger before us with Trump. This is not "hand wringing". This is legitimate concern based upon long lists of valid reasons, both currently, and historically. It concerns me that your denialism about things which are, club you over the head real, genuine threats to democracy, are not some form of denial. I get it. You don't want it to be true. I don't either. But ****, it is real.
Many on the right are indeed going against Trump.
But they're not the ones agonizing over politics of the day.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I'm glad you don't run a command economy.
Poker players would earn top dollar.
And pro baseball players would be eyeballing
you for a Joe Pesci experience.
Yup. And just think of those models who get paid top dollar to be photoshoped and used as psychologically damaging images.
 
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