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Always Atheism vs Christianity?

philbo

High Priest of Cynicism
I thinking you are. But even if you are right... I do not think such a scenario lends a lot of worth to his teachings.

How worthwhile could they be if he had failed so spectacularly at realizing what was happening in his own close quarters?
I'm not going to argue that - I've said much the same, too, to a believer.

I will admit that it would help explain some of his reputation. But his teachings are hardly that naive and innocent. In fact, he was fairly cynical and quite judgemental.
I didn't say "innocent" - naive to the point of simplemindedness; with a tendency to say things so bland and over-simple as to be simply inane, which were still treated as deep and meaningful by the similarly empty-headed. Applying a more modern phrase to this (and one I would definitely have used if he'd said it back when this was happening), it pretty much exemplified what Minchin meant when he said "if you open your mind too much, your brain will fall out"
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I'm not going to argue that - I've said much the same, too, to a believer.


I didn't say "innocent" - naive to the point of simplemindedness; with a tendency to say things so bland and over-simple as to be simply inane, which were still treated as deep and meaningful by the similarly empty-headed. Applying a more modern phrase to this (and one I would definitely have used if he'd said it back when this was happening), it pretty much exemplified what Minchin meant when he said "if you open your mind too much, your brain will fall out"

Yeah. That is indeed common among his followers. Many of them have a weird mix of lack of control with fanatical naivete. They truly seem to be atrophied in some mental or emotional sense.
 

ImprobableBeing

Active Member
s2a...maybe you could post something (wherever appropriate) that outlines your opinions, views, understandings, theories (if applicable) etc regarding...

- tarot
- mediums
- meditation (eastern and western)
- pagan beliefs in old theologies (such as greek, egyption etc)
- chakras
etc

Tarot: Don't believe in it
Mediums: see above
Meditation: Can be good for getting rid of stress, nothing transcendent about it.
Pagan beliefs in old theologies: Don't believe in it
Chakras: Don't believe in it

Basically all forms of external consciousness and/or supernatural belief/tradition are things i don't really believe in.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I posted this recently on my wordpress blog and thought I would pose the question here as well.

"I notice that most (but not all) atheist podcasts, blogs, etc address christianity specifically. It has been a pretty rare occasion for me to hear them address budhhism, hinduism, paganism, etc.

It makes me wonder if atheists are obsessed with the christians and their bibles. Why is this? Is it because christianity is considered a mainstream religion or is it based on the fact that atheists in question are ex christians (or have had bad experiences with christianity).

I personally think it would be really interesting to hear atheists view points and thoughts on the smaller religions."

I think it's because biblical and conservative Christianity are so easy to attack. Deeper schools of Vedic philosophy...not so easy.

Plus. Christianity is (or at least was) an established mainstream institution (these are always ripe for attack....).

Plus many conservative Christians are less intellectual than thought-out atheists. They accept dogma which have logical problems if analysed too deeply.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
I am initally really interested to see what atheists thoughts and opinons are on paganism.

The problem is, at least in my experience, paganism is pretty much never in the news so there's very little reason to talk about it. It would be one thing if the pagans were trying to get their beliefs legislated into law or were out shooting at some other religious group or killing their kids in the name of their religion, but they aren't, at least as far as I know. Therefore, it's not going to be a very popular topic, it's like asking political bloggers to write about subjects that aren't popular or exciting.

Personally, I think paganism is just as pointless and ridiculous as any other religion.
 

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
You do not give the impression of having a very informed or accurate understanding of Atheism, I am sorry to say.

It even looks like you might assume that Atheists are believers deep down but decided to defy God for some reason. And that is very inaccurate a view indeed.
Atheists BELIEVE there is no God. Can I be more plain than that? It is their principal doctrine.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Atheists BELIEVE there is no God. Can I be more plain than that? It is their principal doctrine.

Not really.

1. Some atheists believe that there is no god. Others don't care whether there is one. Yet others just don't trust that there is one. And there is some superposition as well; such an unimportant detail is quite subject to oscillations, after all.

2. Disbelief is not a "doctrine". It is just a personal trait.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
I posted this recently on my wordpress blog and thought I would pose the question here as well.

"I notice that most (but not all) atheist podcasts, blogs, etc address christianity specifically. It has been a pretty rare occasion for me to hear them address budhhism, hinduism, paganism, etc.

It makes me wonder if atheists are obsessed with the christians and their bibles. Why is this? Is it because christianity is considered a mainstream religion or is it based on the fact that atheists in question are ex christians (or have had bad experiences with christianity).

I personally think it would be really interesting to hear atheists view points and thoughts on the smaller religions."

Few things. Generally they only get to talk about Atheism in the context of a religion. Generally the most popular religion of the region (often christianity in the US, Canada, Central/south America, Europe ect).

Secondly they talk about the problems with religion or the things that religious groups are doing that is actively harmful either on a social or moral level. Christianity and Islam are some of the biggest offenders on this front. When was the last time you were offended by a Buddhist or a Jew? It happens yeah but those religions aren't as "in your face" as Islam and Christianity. Watch more episodes of these "Atheist shows" and you'll see a plethura of religions get mentioned.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I posted this recently on my wordpress blog and thought I would pose the question here as well.

"I notice that most (but not all) atheist podcasts, blogs, etc address christianity specifically. It has been a pretty rare occasion for me to hear them address budhhism, hinduism, paganism, etc.

It makes me wonder if atheists are obsessed with the christians and their bibles. Why is this? Is it because christianity is considered a mainstream religion or is it based on the fact that atheists in question are ex christians (or have had bad experiences with christianity).

I personally think it would be really interesting to hear atheists view points and thoughts on the smaller religions."
The only religious schools my tax dollars fund are Christian, not Buddhist. My head of state is the head of a Christian church, not a Pagan denomination. It's the Christians, not the Hindus, that picket my local abortion provider. For the most part, the groups that have stood in the way of recent gains in equality and freedom for the LGBT community have been Christian. The most recent outbreaks of serious but preventable diseases in my country have been traced back to anti-vaccination Christian groups, not Jewish communities.

I'll talk about other religions too, but I think it makes sense that Christianity would be the religion that causes me the most concern.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
s2a...maybe you could post something (wherever appropriate) that outlines your opinions, views, understandings, theories (if applicable) etc regarding...

- tarot
- mediums
- meditation (eastern and western)
- pagan beliefs in old theologies (such as greek, egyption etc)
- chakras
etc

s2a...maybe you could post something (wherever appropriate) that outlines your opinions, views, understandings, theories (if applicable) etc regarding…

Alright and first…your specified inquires:

Bunk.

- mediums
Bunk.

- meditation (eastern and western)
Not really “religious” per se, though I suppose one might incorporate a belief system within that discipline…

- pagan beliefs in old theologies (such as greek, egyption etc)
No more or less valid than any other theology, superstitions, or asks of “deus ex machina” interventions… kinda like Santa Claus

-
I would acknowledge that physical interaction with another of our own species can and will at times manifest a physical response… but any claims of some mystical or “metaphysical” changes remain questionable at best, and unsubstantiated beyond anecdotes and “believing” testimonials…

I have “wisdoms” (you know, opinions) upon many topics :) Many here share similar gift :)

But if you choose to narrow focus to only my own,…

…here’s a few instigated threads of my own , since 2005…

How to disprove God to a believer? (no really)...
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/216119-post1.html

How to prove God to an atheist (no, really)...
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/192606-post1.html

So what’s so great about a Christian heaven?
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/187645-post1.html

So...just what is your reason and purpose for existence?
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/427541-post1.html


All cited posts above have generated at least 100 replies, some worthy and thoughtful, some...well...

Just a start… we may continue at some point from there as you see fit…

sufficient for now?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I think it's because biblical and conservative Christianity are so easy to attack. Deeper schools of Vedic philosophy...not so easy.
I think it's more one of two things:

- Eastern religion is simply irrelevant to the lives of many westerners. To criticize something, you first have to give it a second thought.

- To many, unadulterated Vedic beliefs (as opposed to, say, the diluted, westernized version of them that's passed off as "yoga") come across as so ridiculous that they aren't seen as something that needs to be argued against.
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
The perceived degree of influence of adherents of the two theological positions (NOT 'religions') on society and the mutual perception of license to express fundamental disagreements without significant negative repercussions (including violence).
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
God is love. No matter how logical a man chooses to walk he will never truly snip love out until death. Until then he will search and wonder through religion until he finds it.

I am a logical man, that's why I dont follow.

I am also a man if God which adds to my confusion regarding your assertion.
 

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
Not really.

1. Some atheists believe that there is no god. Others don't care whether there is one. Yet others just don't trust that there is one. And there is some superposition as well; such an unimportant detail is quite subject to oscillations, after all.

2. Disbelief is not a "doctrine". It is just a personal trait.
I don't believe that.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
I don't believe that.

You don't get to deside what those definitions are beyond anyone other than yourself? You can't force those definitions on other people when you are in the minority and incorrect by all accounts of the word as far as semantics are concerned.

Atheists don't have to have a belief that there is no god. simple as that.
 

s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
You don't get to deside what those definitions are beyond anyone other than yourself? You can't force those definitions on other people when you are in the minority and incorrect by all accounts of the word as far as semantics are concerned.

Atheists don't have to have a belief that there is no god. simple as that.

"atheism |ˈāθēˌizəm|
noun
the theory or belief that God does not exist."

I would add, the surety of same :)

Any with questions or doubts as to that basic definition may want to consider themselves as "agnostic", "deist", or at very least... "none of the above" heretics :)
 
Last edited:

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
You don't get to deside what those definitions are beyond anyone other than yourself? You can't force those definitions on other people when you are in the minority and incorrect by all accounts of the word as far as semantics are concerned.

The same goes for athiests in my opinion. Who get's to decide what the definition of God is? If someones definition of God is that each individual person is God, do you deny that everyone doesn't exist?

Atheists don't have to have a belief that there is no god. simple as that.

Isn't that what athiesm is? The lack of belief in God? But in order to lack a belief that something exists, wouldn't you have to define what qualifications something has that don't exist?

Or is it that their is no characteristics that define a being that would be qualified as God? Don't you have to believe that something doesn't have a certain set of characteristics to qualify it as God? If the definition of God isn't dependent up personal views, then I can say anything is God, and you would essentially have to deny that everything exists in order to deny that my concept of God exists no?
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
"atheism |ˈāθēˌizəm|
noun
the theory or belief that God does not exist."

I would add, the surety of same :)

Any with questions or doubts as to that basic definition may want to consider themselves as "agnostic", "deist", or at very least... "none of the above" heretics :)

Or maybe


Definition of atheism in English
atheism
Pronunciation: /ˈeɪθɪɪz(ə)m/
Translate atheism | into German | into Italian | into Spanish
noun
[mass noun]
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Atheist if they lack belief in gods.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
"atheism |ˈāθēˌizəm|
noun
the theory or belief that God does not exist."

I would add, the surety of same :)

Any with questions or doubts as to that basic definition may want to consider themselves as "agnostic", "deist", or at very least... "none of the above" heretics :)

I've been down this path a million times. Atheism as I would probably assume you agree, is the lack of a belief in god not the direct disbelief in god. The vast majority of athesits are Agnostic Atheists and this insistent need for people to force the idea of Atheist to mean a BELIEF in anything ranges from grasping at straws to pure blatent lie.

Its very important to set aside the meaning of these words.

The same goes for athiests in my opinion. Who get's to decide what the definition of God is? If someones definition of God is that each individual person is God, do you deny that everyone doesn't exist?
Your talking about Ignostic. I find Ignostic tends to be a subsection of Atheist in most cases. Its more or less a more specific need to define what god is and most Ignostic want to stress the idea that we haven't defined what god is so they can't say anything in a broad statement. While I respect this point of view I also find it tedious and rather fruitless in conversations.

The reason I say *you* don't get to decide is because someone showed you the definition and you merely responded with " I don't believe that " as if it were some sort of rebuttle. It is not a rebuttle.


Isn't that what athiesm is? The lack of belief in God? But in order to lack a belief that something exists, wouldn't you have to define what qualifications something has that don't exist?
There is a general concensus as to what god is in most normal every day conversation. If you wish to make a more definite definition then thats fine. If you want me to make it more specific what I "don't believe" then I can do so. However that means your position has to stop being Ignostic further in this specific conversation.

I am an atheist in that every claim of god that has been brought to my attention lacks evidence enough for me to accept the claim. I am an Agnostic Atheist. I don't have any specific or set definition for god except for those that have brought me claims and I have to work within those. Beyond that the thought of god dosen't even persist in my daily life.
Or is it that their is no characteristics that define a being that would be qualified as God? Don't you have to believe that something doesn't have a certain set of characteristics to qualify it as God? If the definition of God isn't dependent up personal views, then I can say anything is God, and you would essentially have to deny that everything exists in order to deny that my concept of God exists no?
Read above. The concept of god is such a vague thing that it requires more definition in what your talking about. So far anything beyond what we currently "know" or have evidence for doesn't hold up to reason for me to grand it "belief".
 

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
You should consider checking the thread that I created recently in Same Faith Debates. Personally, I do not criticize or reject doctrines as a straight funcion of how theistic they are, but rather by critérios of moral validity.

@nash8: I am not on the fence about those doctrines, believe me.

I know that, I am asking why you are not on the fence.

Dharma that encourages healthy, sustainable, moral attitudes.

What is healthy, sustainable, and most of all "moral".

I so disagree!

All three are deeply corrupt doctrines. Crowley teaches empty vanity; Kardecism teaches intelectual dishonesty and fear; Rajneesh is just a dangerous con man.

What doctrines of Crowley teach vanity, where does belief in oneself's abilities cross over into vanity? What doctrines of Kardecism teach intellectual dishonesty and fear? Why is Rajneesh a dangerious conman.

I am asking out of geniune interest, I am fairly familiar with Crowley, and I definitely see his views to promotoe vanity, it's just dependent on the perspective you view them.

With the other two, I really don't know that much bout. So I am interested in anothers view on them. Specific doctrines they teach that promote the ideals you attribute to them, or is it the entirety of their belief systems that promote these ideals?

Tarot: Don't believe in it
Mediums: see above
Meditation: Can be good for getting rid of stress, nothing transcendent about it.
Pagan beliefs in old theologies: Don't believe in it
Chakras: Don't believe in it

Basically all forms of external consciousness and/or supernatural belief/tradition are things i don't really believe in.

Have you ever practiced meditation? If so, what meditations have you practiced?

As far as the chakras, I think future biophoton research would lend more prevelance to the ideas of chakras.
Biophoton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The body emits light within the spectrum of visible light, the question is, do certain areas of the body tend to emit certain frequencies more regularly than other areas? I think the lack of evidence for this particular phenomenon is due more to lack of research rather than lack of evidence.

As for the others, they are only as real as the insight you gain from them. Repeatable evidence will never be presented in my opinon.

The problem is, at least in my experience, paganism is pretty much never in the news so there's very little reason to talk about it. It would be one thing if the pagans were trying to get their beliefs legislated into law or were out shooting at some other religious group or killing their kids in the name of their religion, but they aren't, at least as far as I know. Therefore, it's not going to be a very popular topic, it's like asking political bloggers to write about subjects that aren't popular or exciting.

Personally, I think paganism is just as pointless and ridiculous as any other religion.

In the aspect of accepting that it is the only "truth" I agree.

Not really.

1. Some atheists believe that there is no god. Others don't care whether there is one. Yet others just don't trust that there is one. And there is some superposition as well; such an unimportant detail is quite subject to oscillations, after all.

Believing that there isn't a god, and not trusting that there is one isn't the same thing? Semantics in my opinion. Not caring whether there is one or not, would not be qualified as athiesm in and of itself in my opinion. More agnostic from my perspective.

[/quote] 2. Disbelief is not a "doctrine". It is just a personal trait.[/quote]

Personal trait, personal doctrine. Semantics.

Alright and first…your specified inquires:

Not really “religious” per se, though I suppose one might incorporate a belief system within that discipline…

I would agree.

-I would acknowledge that physical interaction with another of our own species can and will at times manifest a physical response… but any claims of some mystical or “metaphysical” changes remain questionable at best, and unsubstantiated beyond anecdotes and “believing” testimonials…

Why does it have to be with "our own species"? All living beings emit light within the visible light spectrum which is what the concept of a chakra is. As far as mystical, I would agree that it would be personal and repeatable evidence would never be gained But as far as psychological, I would argue that placebo effect would be enough to establish psychological effect, and if placebo effect was demonstrated to be a repeatable result for the majority of society, why would it not be scientific? Psychology is, after all, the prediction of human action based upon general tendencies.

I have “wisdoms” (you know, opinions) upon many topics :) Many here share similar gift :)

Most definitely a good thing to have. ;)

Or maybe

Definition of atheism in English
atheism
Pronunciation: /ˈeɪθɪɪz(ə)m/
Translate atheism | into German | into Italian | into Spanish
noun
[mass noun]
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Atheist if they lack belief in gods.

I was thinking the same thing as well.
 
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