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Featured Allah's Associates: Islamic Idolatry & Autolatry

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Sleeppy, Oct 22, 2016.

  1. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Muslims:

    1) What does it mean to attribute associates to Allah?

    2) Is Allah subverted by the free will of His creation?

    3) Concerning the Day of Judgement: What is the difference between knowledge and judgement?
     
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  2. interminable

    interminable منتظر

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    If u consider an entity that manages worlds and is himself the only creator of everything u can be considered a Muslim generally otherwise if u imagine something alongside god that isn't under his management u aren't Muslim anymore

    Everything ,every move is powered by God so not only free will but also every evil and devilish things can be attributed to god but indirectly
    In other words since everything is powered by God u can attribute them to him indirectly


    God knows about our actions but after the resurrection he will make a decision about our fate regarding our actions here
     
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  3. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    If everything is either directly, or indirectly, attributable to Allah- what purpose does Allah have in delaying, and deciding what is foreknown?

    You're saying that Allah judges Himself.
     
  4. interminable

    interminable منتظر

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    In The day of judgement evildoers will see the glory of pious people and will regret about that this is another punishment that God prepared for evildoers
    And some pious people such as prophets and martyrs will intercede for those who have bad and good deeds to enter them heaven

    These are some reasons that why God delays making judge about people until that day

    And notice that many people deserve to go to hell but God because is benign will forgive some of them


    And the only thing between us and god is our ability to choose

    This ability shows that God's direct actions are different from ours

    That's why God won't judge himself
     
  5. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Ability to choose. When someone makes a choice, does that choice originate with them? Does it originate from Allah? Or does it originate from nothing?
     
  6. interminable

    interminable منتظر

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    Them??? what do u mean by that????

    Actually I didn't get completely but look
    God has powered our actions and the ability to choose
    I mean when u make a choice God has given u to make that if he doesn't do so u can't do anything
    This is just about our physical actions

    But at making a choice whether bad or good u r free
    If u make a bad one god will give u a power to that bad thing likewise the good one


    This idea is according to Shia religion that believes neither in free will nor in predestination but something between them

    We aren't free to do whatever we want and actually don't have this power to do so
    And isn't everything predestined simply because if everything is predestined by God punishment and rewards will be senseless and god doesn't do anything without a purpose
     
    #6 interminable, Oct 23, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2016
  7. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Thank you, for conversing with me, brother.

    But my question is very important here:

    Where does the choice to do good originate? Where does the choice to do bad originate? What causes a person to choose good over bad? Or to choose bad over good?

    These choices aren't random, and they aren't created out of nothingness. I suggest that we look at Adam's example. God knows all things, and gave the tree of knowledge concerning both good and evil, to Adam. The Son of Man digests good and evil together, and grows in the wisdom of that one tree's substance.

    Cain and Abel are likewise both given for us to digest. But, there are many who accept Cain, and cannot hear Abel's blood, until it is their own.
     
  8. interminable

    interminable منتظر

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    If I get your meaning properly the answer is very easy
    There are some reasons for that

    First is human self
    We have egoism and when we wanna choose this doesn't allow us to choose good
    This is for those who are not under correct upbringing and haven't been able to educate or use wisdom

    And we shouldn't forget the role of Satan in that. He always orders us to do bad
    And society has effect on our choices

    But consider when someone commits crime or is guilty Noone considers society or Satan or bad friends or family as a criminal simply because god has given to everyone a power we call reason
    Even we have in holy quran that Satan will say in the day of judgement that I didn't force them to do anything but rather they obeyed me! Blame is no them

    And Because of ""reason"" God will punish and reward

    Did I get your meaning properly?
     
  9. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    But as you say, reason is not given to every person equally. Human reasoning does forcefully produce Satanic/adversarial action.
     
  10. interminable

    interminable منتظر

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    Reason can be increased by study and practice
    That's why prophets came for
    Shia mystics say we have to fight against our base desires and gradually our reason will overcome and will receive god's light

    And about your statement God will consider our capacity

    البقره
    لَا يُكَلِّفُ اللَّهُ نَفْسًا إِلَّا وُسْعَهَا لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَعَلَيْهَا مَا اكْتَسَبَتْ
    Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred.
     
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  11. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    In this case, creation is vindicated by the Creator.

    But, to associate a Day of Judgement with the Creator, is to also associate with Him ignorance of that day, and also ignorance of the Creation.


    Do you believe in a God who knows all things, not needing judgement, or the intercession of associated prophets?

    Or do you believe in a God needing to observe His creation for evidence, and associating Himself with the reasoning of prophets to make judgement?
     
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  12. interminable

    interminable منتظر

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    Every sane human is responsible for his actions and on the day of judgement he will reap what he has sowed bad or good
    God hasn't vindicated creation although we know he is the most merciful

    God knows everything but this doesn't mean that he shouldn't delay judgement about humans
    Simply because he does whatever he wants and in resurrection God will show the reality of the holy Quran to all people

    Besides God wants to show evildoers the bounties that he has prepared for righteous believers
    This will be a kind of punishment for evildoers
    And some prophets and martyrs and mystics will intercede
    This is because God wants to make them proud of themselves and glory


    After all Quran says some unbelievers will deny their actions and God's response :

    يس
    الْيَوْمَ نَخْتِمُ عَلَىٰ أَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَتُكَلِّمُنَا أَيْدِيهِمْ وَتَشْهَدُ أَرْجُلُهُم بِمَا كَانُوا يَكْسِبُونَ
    That Day, We will seal over their mouths, and their hands will speak to Us, and their feet will testify about what they used to earn. (65)


    GOD WILL FORGIVE MANY BUT whom ?
     
  13. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Respectfully, there are too many contradictions, for you to answer truthfully.

    1) Judgement is a function of ignorance.
    2) A Creator, without associate, is Himself the vindication of creation.
    3) Sanity is not a human creation. Reason is not a human creation. Choice is not a human creation. Goodness is not a human creation. Humanity is not God's associate, creating any of these things.
    4) Creation may not glorify itself.
     
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  14. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    5) Nothing intercedes between God and God's determination.
     
    #14 Sleeppy, Oct 25, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2016
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  15. The Emperor of Mankind

    The Emperor of Mankind Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic

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    Unless he is alleged to be uncreated. How can he be a vindication of something he exists apart from? Indeed, how could God have been a vindication of creation before he created anything?


    Eternal punishment for a finite non-crime (ie not worshipping him) is not merciful.
     
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  16. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Especially being uncreated.

    1) An uncreated source is necessarily responsible for its output.

    2) For example: the first Singularity is necessarily responsible for the contents of the Universe. The Singularity does not exist apart from the Universe, but rather acts as the source.

    3) There either is no "before", i.e. time is an illusory function for parts within the whole- or said vindication was a potential force.
     
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  17. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

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    Thankfully, not all Muslims believe there is an eternal punishment, but a finite one for most people.
     
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  18. interminable

    interminable منتظر

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    Actually I didn't understand some part of your statements
    About judgement
    U underestimated God's knowledge
    Every move that we can do is by God's leave
    Without his permission we can't do anything so how do u say that judgement is ignorance
    Please notice that we are talking about God not a judge that need to study and sometimes is defeated by his desires and sometimes his falsehood will be cleared by passing the time

    We talk about a God that knows everything and this judgement is some kind of formalities
    In that day the criterion will be Quran
    The more u r closer to its teaching the more u will receive reward and vice versa

    And as I told u this day has lots of stages and these stages can be a kind of punishment and compensation for some believer to not to go to hell
    I mean some of us will be punished by a painful death and in purgatory and in day of judgement

    These can put pressure on some people to purify them so they don't have to go to hell anymore
    This is an another feature of this day
    About intercession you r wrong
    Prophets and martyrs and mystics can't intercede whoever they want
    For instance we have in our traditions that the person that is careless about his daily prayers will not receive intercession although intercession has lots of stages itself

    طه
    يَوْمَئِذٍ لَّا تَنفَعُ الشَّفَاعَةُ إِلَّا مَنْ أَذِنَ لَهُ الرَّحْمَٰنُ وَرَضِيَ لَهُ قَوْلًا
    That Day, no intercession will benefit except [that of] one to whom the Most Merciful has given permission and has accepted his word. (109)


    Honestly I didn't get what u said about vindication
    Would u please tell me about the meaning that u infer from this word?


     
  19. interminable

    interminable منتظر

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    I don't know what you mean by vindication
    Would u please explain more
    The more I think and checked my dictionary about the meaning of this world the more I'm confused

    Besides the person that killed 200000 people in one second shouldn't be punished eternally while god says in the Quran :
    المائده
    مِنْ أَجْلِ ذَٰلِكَ كَتَبْنَا عَلَىٰ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنَّهُ مَن قَتَلَ نَفْسًا بِغَيْرِ نَفْسٍ أَوْ فَسَادٍ فِي الْأَرْضِ فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَمَنْ أَحْيَاهَا فَكَأَنَّمَا أَحْيَا النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَلَقَدْ جَاءَتْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ ثُمَّ إِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِّنْهُم بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ فِي الْأَرْضِ لَمُسْرِفُونَ
    Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors. (32)

    See killing a person is like killing all people can u imagine it's appropriate punishment????

    After all eternal punishment isn't for every sin
     
  20. interminable

    interminable منتظر

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    Most of them believe that

    And that punishment isn't for every sin
     
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