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Allah's Associates: Islamic Idolatry & Autolatry

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Muslims:

1) What does it mean to attribute associates to Allah?

2) Is Allah subverted by the free will of His creation?

3) Concerning the Day of Judgement: What is the difference between knowledge and judgement?
 

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Muslims:

1) What does it mean to attribute associates to Allah?

2) Is Allah subverted by the free will of His creation?

3) Concerning the Day of Judgement: What is the difference between knowledge and judgement?
If u consider an entity that manages worlds and is himself the only creator of everything u can be considered a Muslim generally otherwise if u imagine something alongside god that isn't under his management u aren't Muslim anymore

Everything ,every move is powered by God so not only free will but also every evil and devilish things can be attributed to god but indirectly
In other words since everything is powered by God u can attribute them to him indirectly


God knows about our actions but after the resurrection he will make a decision about our fate regarding our actions here
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
If u consider an entity that manages worlds and is himself the only creator of everything u can be considered a Muslim generally otherwise if u imagine something alongside god that isn't under his management u aren't Muslim anymore

Everything ,every move is powered by God so not only free will but also every evil and devilish things can be attributed to god but indirectly
In other words since everything is powered by God u can attribute them to him indirectly


God knows about our actions but after the resurrection he will make a decision about our fate regarding our actions here

If everything is either directly, or indirectly, attributable to Allah- what purpose does Allah have in delaying, and deciding what is foreknown?

You're saying that Allah judges Himself.
 

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If everything is either directly, or indirectly, attributable to Allah- what purpose does Allah have in delaying, and deciding what is foreknown?

You're saying that Allah judges Himself.
In The day of judgement evildoers will see the glory of pious people and will regret about that this is another punishment that God prepared for evildoers
And some pious people such as prophets and martyrs will intercede for those who have bad and good deeds to enter them heaven

These are some reasons that why God delays making judge about people until that day

And notice that many people deserve to go to hell but God because is benign will forgive some of them


And the only thing between us and god is our ability to choose

This ability shows that God's direct actions are different from ours

That's why God won't judge himself
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
In The day of judgement evildoers will see the glory of pious people and will regret about that this is another punishment that God prepared for evildoers
And some pious people such as prophets and martyrs will intercede for those who have bad and good deeds to enter them heaven

These are some reasons that why God delays making judge about people until that day

And notice that many people deserve to go to hell but God because is benign will forgive some of them


And the only thing between us and god is our ability to choose

This ability shows that God's direct actions are different from ours

That's why God won't judge himself

Ability to choose. When someone makes a choice, does that choice originate with them? Does it originate from Allah? Or does it originate from nothing?
 

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Ability to choose. When someone makes a choice, does that choice originate with them? Does it originate from Allah? Or does it originate from nothing?
Them??? what do u mean by that????

Actually I didn't get completely but look
God has powered our actions and the ability to choose
I mean when u make a choice God has given u to make that if he doesn't do so u can't do anything
This is just about our physical actions

But at making a choice whether bad or good u r free
If u make a bad one god will give u a power to that bad thing likewise the good one


This idea is according to Shia religion that believes neither in free will nor in predestination but something between them

We aren't free to do whatever we want and actually don't have this power to do so
And isn't everything predestined simply because if everything is predestined by God punishment and rewards will be senseless and god doesn't do anything without a purpose
 
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Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Them??? what do u mean by that????

Actually I didn't get completely but look
God has powered our actions and the ability to choose
I mean when u make a choice God has given u to make that if he doesn't do so u can't do anything
This is just about our physical actions

But at making a choice whether bad or good u r free
If u make a bad one god will give u a power to that bad thing likewise the good one


This idea is according to Shia religion that believes neither in free will nor in predestination but something between them

We aren't free to do whatever we want and actually don't have this power to do so
And isn't everything predestined simply because if everything is predestined by God punishment and rewards will be senseless and god doesn't do anything without a purpose

Thank you, for conversing with me, brother.

But my question is very important here:

Where does the choice to do good originate? Where does the choice to do bad originate? What causes a person to choose good over bad? Or to choose bad over good?

These choices aren't random, and they aren't created out of nothingness. I suggest that we look at Adam's example. God knows all things, and gave the tree of knowledge concerning both good and evil, to Adam. The Son of Man digests good and evil together, and grows in the wisdom of that one tree's substance.

Cain and Abel are likewise both given for us to digest. But, there are many who accept Cain, and cannot hear Abel's blood, until it is their own.
 

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Thank you, for conversing with me, brother.

But my question is very important here:

Where does the choice to do good originate? Where does the choice to do bad originate? What causes a person to choose good over bad? Or to choose bad over good?

These choices aren't random, and they aren't created out of nothingness. I suggest that we look at Adam's example. God knows all things, and gave the tree of knowledge concerning both good and evil, to Adam. The Son of Man digests good and evil together, and grows in the wisdom of that one tree's substance.

Cain and Abel are likewise both given for us to digest. But, there are many who accept Cain, and cannot hear Abel's blood, until it is their own.
If I get your meaning properly the answer is very easy
There are some reasons for that

First is human self
We have egoism and when we wanna choose this doesn't allow us to choose good
This is for those who are not under correct upbringing and haven't been able to educate or use wisdom

And we shouldn't forget the role of Satan in that. He always orders us to do bad
And society has effect on our choices

But consider when someone commits crime or is guilty Noone considers society or Satan or bad friends or family as a criminal simply because god has given to everyone a power we call reason
Even we have in holy quran that Satan will say in the day of judgement that I didn't force them to do anything but rather they obeyed me! Blame is no them

And Because of ""reason"" God will punish and reward

Did I get your meaning properly?
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
If I get your meaning properly the answer is very easy
There are some reasons for that

First is human self
We have egoism and when we wanna choose this doesn't allow us to choose good
This is for those who are not under correct upbringing and haven't been able to educate or use wisdom

And we shouldn't forget the role of Satan in that. He always orders us to do bad
And society has effect on our choices

But consider when someone commits crime or is guilty Noone considers society or Satan or bad friends or family as a criminal simply because god has given to everyone a power we call reason
Even we have in holy quran that Satan will say in the day of judgement that I didn't force them to do anything but rather they obeyed me! Blame is no them

And Because of ""reason"" God will punish and reward

Did I get your meaning properly?

But as you say, reason is not given to every person equally. Human reasoning does forcefully produce Satanic/adversarial action.
 

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But as you say, reason is not given to every person equally. Human reasoning does forcefully produce Satanic/adversarial action.
Reason can be increased by study and practice
That's why prophets came for
Shia mystics say we have to fight against our base desires and gradually our reason will overcome and will receive god's light

And about your statement God will consider our capacity

البقره
لَا يُكَلِّفُ اللَّهُ نَفْسًا إِلَّا وُسْعَهَا لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَعَلَيْهَا مَا اكْتَسَبَتْ
Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Reason can be increased by study and practice
That's why prophets came for
Shia mystics say we have to fight against our base desires and gradually our reason will overcome and will receive god's light

And about your statement God will consider our capacity

البقره
لَا يُكَلِّفُ اللَّهُ نَفْسًا إِلَّا وُسْعَهَا لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَعَلَيْهَا مَا اكْتَسَبَتْ
Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred.

In this case, creation is vindicated by the Creator.

But, to associate a Day of Judgement with the Creator, is to also associate with Him ignorance of that day, and also ignorance of the Creation.


Do you believe in a God who knows all things, not needing judgement, or the intercession of associated prophets?

Or do you believe in a God needing to observe His creation for evidence, and associating Himself with the reasoning of prophets to make judgement?
 

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In this case, creation is vindicated by the Creator.

But, to associate a Day of Judgement with the Creator, is to also associate with Him ignorance of that day, and also ignorance of the Creation.


Do you believe in a God who knows all things, not needing judgement, or the intercession of associated prophets?

Or do you believe in a God needing to observe His creation for evidence, and associating Himself with the reasoning of prophets to make judgement?
Every sane human is responsible for his actions and on the day of judgement he will reap what he has sowed bad or good
God hasn't vindicated creation although we know he is the most merciful

God knows everything but this doesn't mean that he shouldn't delay judgement about humans
Simply because he does whatever he wants and in resurrection God will show the reality of the holy Quran to all people

Besides God wants to show evildoers the bounties that he has prepared for righteous believers
This will be a kind of punishment for evildoers
And some prophets and martyrs and mystics will intercede
This is because God wants to make them proud of themselves and glory


After all Quran says some unbelievers will deny their actions and God's response :

يس
الْيَوْمَ نَخْتِمُ عَلَىٰ أَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَتُكَلِّمُنَا أَيْدِيهِمْ وَتَشْهَدُ أَرْجُلُهُم بِمَا كَانُوا يَكْسِبُونَ
That Day, We will seal over their mouths, and their hands will speak to Us, and their feet will testify about what they used to earn. (65)


GOD WILL FORGIVE MANY BUT whom ?
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Every sane human is responsible for his actions and on the day of judgement he will reap what he has sowed bad or good
God hasn't vindicated creation although we know he is the most merciful

God knows everything but this doesn't mean that he shouldn't delay judgement about humans
Simply because he does whatever he wants and in resurrection God will show the reality of the holy Quran to all people

Besides God wants to show evildoers the bounties that he has prepared for righteous believers
This will be a kind of punishment for evildoers
And some prophets and martyrs and mystics will intercede
This is because God wants to make them proud of themselves and glory


After all Quran says some unbelievers will deny their actions and God's response :

يس
الْيَوْمَ نَخْتِمُ عَلَىٰ أَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَتُكَلِّمُنَا أَيْدِيهِمْ وَتَشْهَدُ أَرْجُلُهُم بِمَا كَانُوا يَكْسِبُونَ
That Day, We will seal over their mouths, and their hands will speak to Us, and their feet will testify about what they used to earn. (65)


GOD WILL FORGIVE MANY BUT whom ?

Respectfully, there are too many contradictions, for you to answer truthfully.

1) Judgement is a function of ignorance.
2) A Creator, without associate, is Himself the vindication of creation.
3) Sanity is not a human creation. Reason is not a human creation. Choice is not a human creation. Goodness is not a human creation. Humanity is not God's associate, creating any of these things.
4) Creation may not glorify itself.
 

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2) A Creator, without associate, is Himself the vindication of creation.

Unless he is alleged to be uncreated. How can he be a vindication of something he exists apart from? Indeed, how could God have been a vindication of creation before he created anything?


God hasn't vindicated creation although we know he is the most merciful

Eternal punishment for a finite non-crime (ie not worshipping him) is not merciful.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Unless he is alleged to be uncreated. How can he be a vindication of something he exists apart from? Indeed, how could God have been a vindication of creation before he created anything?

Especially being uncreated.

1) An uncreated source is necessarily responsible for its output.

2) For example: the first Singularity is necessarily responsible for the contents of the Universe. The Singularity does not exist apart from the Universe, but rather acts as the source.

3) There either is no "before", i.e. time is an illusory function for parts within the whole- or said vindication was a potential force.
 

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Respectfully, there are too many contradictions, for you to answer truthfully.

1) Judgement is a function of ignorance.
2) A Creator, without associate, is Himself the vindication of creation.
3) Sanity is not a human creation. Reason is not a human creation. Choice is not a human creation. Goodness is not a human creation. Humanity is not God's associate, creating any of these things.
4) Creation may not glorify itself.
Actually I didn't understand some part of your statements
About judgement
U underestimated God's knowledge
Every move that we can do is by God's leave
Without his permission we can't do anything so how do u say that judgement is ignorance
Please notice that we are talking about God not a judge that need to study and sometimes is defeated by his desires and sometimes his falsehood will be cleared by passing the time

We talk about a God that knows everything and this judgement is some kind of formalities
In that day the criterion will be Quran
The more u r closer to its teaching the more u will receive reward and vice versa

And as I told u this day has lots of stages and these stages can be a kind of punishment and compensation for some believer to not to go to hell
I mean some of us will be punished by a painful death and in purgatory and in day of judgement

These can put pressure on some people to purify them so they don't have to go to hell anymore
This is an another feature of this day
About intercession you r wrong
Prophets and martyrs and mystics can't intercede whoever they want
For instance we have in our traditions that the person that is careless about his daily prayers will not receive intercession although intercession has lots of stages itself

طه
يَوْمَئِذٍ لَّا تَنفَعُ الشَّفَاعَةُ إِلَّا مَنْ أَذِنَ لَهُ الرَّحْمَٰنُ وَرَضِيَ لَهُ قَوْلًا
That Day, no intercession will benefit except [that of] one to whom the Most Merciful has given permission and has accepted his word. (109)


Honestly I didn't get what u said about vindication
Would u please tell me about the meaning that u infer from this word?


5) Nothing intercedes between God and God's determination.
 

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Unless he is alleged to be uncreated. How can he be a vindication of something he exists apart from? Indeed, how could God have been a vindication of creation before he created anything?




Eternal punishment for a finite non-crime (ie not worshipping him) is not merciful.
I don't know what you mean by vindication
Would u please explain more
The more I think and checked my dictionary about the meaning of this world the more I'm confused

Besides the person that killed 200000 people in one second shouldn't be punished eternally while god says in the Quran :
المائده
مِنْ أَجْلِ ذَٰلِكَ كَتَبْنَا عَلَىٰ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنَّهُ مَن قَتَلَ نَفْسًا بِغَيْرِ نَفْسٍ أَوْ فَسَادٍ فِي الْأَرْضِ فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَمَنْ أَحْيَاهَا فَكَأَنَّمَا أَحْيَا النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَلَقَدْ جَاءَتْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ ثُمَّ إِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِّنْهُم بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ فِي الْأَرْضِ لَمُسْرِفُونَ
Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors. (32)

See killing a person is like killing all people can u imagine it's appropriate punishment????

After all eternal punishment isn't for every sin
 
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