Adam and eve

[blü 2]

God allowed Adam to eat from all the trees except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, warning him that death would result.

And specifying that if he ate the fruit, he would die the same day.

After Adam disobeyed God’s command regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God forbade Adam to eat from the tree of life lest he live forever in that state; therefore God guards the tree.

No, not quite. God never says to Adam, I forbid you to eat from the Tree of Life, Instead, frightened that Adam will do so and become 'as one of us' (the gods), [be] boots Adam and Eve out of the Garden.

Notice that, as I said, they were incapable of sin at the time they ate the fruit because they had expressly been denied knowledge of good and evil.

And notice that God never once accuses them of sin.

Are you understanding yet?

Are you understanding yet?

They were incapable of sin.

God never mentions sin.

God does NOT expel them from the Garden for sin.

God expels them from the Garden for fear they might become like him, immortal.

There is no mention of death entering the world. If death wasn't already in the world, there'd be no need of a Tree of Life.

There is no mention of the Fall of Man. You'd think if that's what the story was about someone would have said so; but no, it's plainly and unambiguously about something else, Adam and Eve not becoming rivals to God.

And by now you'll have checked out the point about the Fall of Man not being dreamed up till the second century BCE, many centuries after the Garden tale was written.

 

[RestlessSoul]

And specifying that if he ate the fruit, he would die the same day.
No, not quite. God never says to Adam, I forbid you to eat from the Tree of Life, Instead, frightened that Adam will do so and become 'as one of us' (the gods), [be] boots Adam and Eve out of the Garden.

Notice that, as I said, they were incapable of sin at the time they ate the fruit because they had expressly been denied knowledge of good and evil.

And notice that God never once accuses them of sin.
Are you understanding yet?

They were incapable of sin.

God never mentions sin.

God does NOT expel them from the Garden for sin.

God expels them from the Garden for fear they might become like him, immortal.

There is no mention of death entering the world. If death wasn't already in the world, there'd be no need of a Tree of Life.

There is no mention of the Fall of Man. You'd think if that's what the story was about someone would have said so; but no, it's plainly and unambiguously about something else, Adam and Eve not becoming rivals to God.

And by now you'll have checked out the point about the Fall of Man not being dreamed up till the second century BCE, many centuries after the Garden tale was written.

You miss the point, I think, which is that we expel ourselves from the garden; we are the architects of all our own sorrows.

“God hath bid dwell far off all anxious cares,
And not molest us, unless we ourselves
Seek them with wand’ring thoughts, and notions vain.
But apt the mind or fancy is to rove
Unchecked, and of her roving is no end;”

John Milton, Paradise Lost, Book VIII, 185-189

We are in this Vale of Tears through the historic exercise of our own will. Humanity - “we poor exiled children of Eve” - are in a hell of our own making. The solution - the return to the garden - is in our hands. To know peace, we have only to submit to the will of God, but pride prevents most of us from ever doing so.

“Which way I fly is Hell; myself am Hell;
And in the lowest deep a lower deep
Still threat’ning to devour me opens wide,
To which the Hell I suffer seems a Heav’n.
O then at last relent: is there no place
Left for repentance, none for pardon left?
None left but by submission; and that word
Disdain forbids me, and the dread of shame”

Paradise Lost Book IV, 75-82

 

[Wildswanderer]

I'm understanding that NOWHERE does it say God intended Adam to live forever but SPECIFICALLY it says God kicked Adam out of Eden TO STOP HIM LIVING FOREVER.

So God created a garden, put the tree of life there and the tree of knowledge and only forbade eating from the tree of knowledge but didn't intend for them to eat from the tree of life?
Illogical.

 

[Wildswanderer]

And specifying that if he ate the fruit, he would die the same day.
No, not quite. God never says to Adam, I forbid you to eat from the Tree of Life, Instead, frightened that Adam will do so and become 'as one of us' (the gods), [be] boots Adam and Eve out of the Garden.

Notice that, as I said, they were incapable of sin at the time they ate the fruit because they had expressly been denied knowledge of good and evil.

And notice that God never once accuses them of sin.
Are you understanding yet?

They were incapable of sin.

God never mentions sin.

God does NOT expel them from the Garden for sin.

God expels them from the Garden for fear they might become like him, immortal.

There is no mention of death entering the world. If death wasn't already in the world, there'd be no need of a Tree of Life.

There is no mention of the Fall of Man. You'd think if that's what the story was about someone would have said so; but no, it's plainly and unambiguously about something else, Adam and Eve not becoming rivals to God.

And by now you'll have checked out the point about the Fall of Man not being dreamed up till the second century BCE, many centuries after the Garden tale was written.

You obviously haven't studied the account in light of what the rest of the Bible says about Adam.
It all fits together. Scripture should be interpreted by scripture. Since you don't understand that concept, you don't get it.

 

[wellwisher]

So God created a garden, put the tree of life there and the tree of knowledge and only forbade eating from the tree of knowledge but didn't intend for them to eat from the tree of life?
Illogical.

Adam and Eve before the fall were similar to natural human animals, in touch with their natural instincts and thereby integrated with nature. Although this inner and outer paradise was perfect in many ways, the instincts of Adam and Eve made their choices for them. They were perfect, but not yet free moral agents, with choice and willpower. Like the natural animal moving to the beat of an inner programming, Adam and Eve did not yet call their own willful shots. To evolve consciousness, they needed to develop will and choice.

The analogy is say you were part of a computer programming team trying to design an intelligent computer. An intelligent computer can think for itself, and not just be a perfect part of a program, as was Adam and Eve. The latter is an automaton that moves perfectly each time you push a button. Will and choice will need to depart from that.

The first signs of an intelligent computer will not be some elaborate Nobel prize creation. Instead it may appear as a small bug in the system. Like a small child, the intelligence can destroy and disrupt the house, but they cannot yet built and create. Like the terrible twos they can say no but not yes.

The fall from paradise was the first bug implicit of an intelligent human computer. Adam and Eve evolve, first as bugs in an otherwise organized program of instinct. But this sign of willful intelligence, although destructive, was nevertheless a major breakthrough, so it was called good.

Say you were one of the creators of this intelligent computer. It expands its will with various departures from the program and now starts to invade the company network, reeking havoc. You, as one of the creators, would marvel at this willful act of defiance. The others on the network, who do not understand the significance of your work, would only see the bugs and how these bugs are impacting their little organized worlds.

God let this happen and even assisted in its early development. He knew this small disruptive step was the beginning of something great; it is self aware. The self awareness appear when Adam and Eve knew they were naked. One day all this mischief will pay off and the creation will start to create and have a positive influence; Jesus. Sometimes, where others see only risk, creators can see a future opportunity.

The story of Adam and Eve is about the evolution of modern human consciousness away from the natural human of the past. Willpower and choice requires getting beyond the original programming, so one has choices beyond the program. This change will cause early repressions, so problems will appear before the system firms up and runs smoothly.

In the bible, God rested on the seventh day. On that seventh day of rest, God was wandering in the garden of Eden. He was not creating anything big at this time. It is a Sabbath rest and by his own command he does not work on the Sabbath. Satan; a long time programming friend, takes over the work with Adam and Eve. Satan was the father of bugs; adds randomness, thereby allowing his creation to begin its baby steps toward full willful consciousness. And it was good.

 

[blü 2]

You miss the point, I think, which is that we expel ourselves from the garden; we are the architects of all our own sorrows.

Well, partly we are, the rest we delegate to fortune and our politicians.

But I regard the sorrows I've personally encountered as normal parts of living life as a modern Homo sapiens sapiens, and I regard my luck as a bit better than average, but not without various twists that have been major parts of my education.

And though I'm not John Milton's biggest fan, thanks for the quote, which conveys your point neatly.

We are in this Vale of Tears through the historic exercise of our own will. Humanity - “we poor exiled children of Eve” - are in a hell of our own making.

That's because we're humans, not because Eve did anything wrong. Indeed, had there been an Eve, her deed of bringing to mankind the knowledge of good and evil would put her right up there with humanity's leading heroes and heroines.

The solution - the return to the garden - is in our hands. To know peace, we have only to submit to the will of God, but pride prevents most of us from ever doing so.

In my case, as a materialist, it isn't pride but incomprehension which prevents me from even understanding the proposal.

But that's not the main thing. The main thing is to treat others with decency, respect and inclusion (and common sense) regardless of anyone's attitude to religious matters, and maybe we can keep heading in the right direction.

And thanks for the further Milton. On such occasions I keep finding the expressions I seek in FitzGerald's Omar Khayyam, such as ─

66. (4th edn)
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell:

And by and by my Soul return’d to me,​

And answer’d, ‘I Myself am Heav’n and Hell:’​

 

[blü 2]

So God created a garden, put the tree of life there and the tree of knowledge and only forbade eating from the tree of knowledge but didn't intend for them to eat from the tree of life?
Illogical.

Obviously not. God makes the point out loud and plain Genesis 3:22-23 as we've seen.

You obviously haven't studied the account in light of what the rest of the Bible says about Adam.

I'd say that Christians who assert that the Garden story is about the Fall of Man haven't read it, or have only read it determined to impose their prejudices on it. It simply doesn't say what Christians say it says, isn't about what Christians say it's about.

It all fits together. Scripture should be interpreted by scripture. Since you don't understand that concept, you don't get it.

Ancient documents should be interpreted by historians and archaelogists, because they have the best range of skills for understanding the past.

I understand the religious point of view quite well, but unlike history and archaeology it has no objective standard of truth, so it's largely unable to satisfy.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I'd say that Christians who assert that the Garden story is about the Fall of Man haven't read it, or have only read it determined to impose their prejudices on it. It simply doesn't say what Christians say it says, isn't about what Christians say it's about.

It says that Adam and Eve's disobedience caused them to lose paradise. It's not hard to understand how the curse God pronounced has affected all of mankind since. Especially if you read the whole Bible.

 

[Link]

Mohammad (a) and his family (a) are exalted beyond capabilities for us to reach and the tree of life/knowledge. Adam (a) loved God and wished he can be his rank. But God loved Adam (a) and knew he couldn't and if he tried to compete with them, it would be injustice and lead him to being exposed in his adequacies. His shortcomings were covered by God and God just told him not to look at the exalted ones who would have everlasting authority with envy. Satan however, said, those veils you hear, what is that God really telling you, think about it, they are deceiving you so you don't reach their rank. They just don't want you to reach their rank so said to stay away from them and not look towards them with competition and envy.

He wanting to be highest creation and reach the highest rank, Satan knew what to say, to motivate him. And so turned his resolve to wavering, his certain to doubt, and his tranquility to pain.

But Adam (a) quickly repented and took leaves from the paradise, and began to fight off his sins, and not let him go to rebellion and evil. Satan when he disobeyed, could've repented but was resolute in disbelief.

Adam (a) doubted but turned back to God after disobedience and believed in his light again, and repented sincerely, and so was at all not diminished from being chosen. Rather, his sincere repentance proves he is chosen for a reason, as God knew even if he did this unlikely blunder, he would turn back to him out of love he knew from him.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Well, partly we are, the rest we delegate to fortune and our politicians.

But I regard the sorrows I've personally encountered as normal parts of living life as a modern Homo sapiens sapiens, and I regard my luck as a bit better than average, but not without various twists that have been major parts of my education.

And though I'm not John Milton's biggest fan, thanks for the quote, which conveys your point neatly.
That's because we're humans, not because Eve did anything wrong. Indeed, had there been an Eve, her deed of bringing to mankind the knowledge of good and evil would put her right up there with humanity's leading heroes and heroines.
In my case, as a materialist, it isn't pride but incomprehension which prevents me from even understanding the proposal.

But that's not the main thing. The main thing is to treat others with decency, respect and inclusion (and common sense) regardless of anyone's attitude to religious matters, and maybe we can keep heading in the right direction.

And thanks for the further Milton. On such occasions I keep finding the expressions I seek in FitzGerald's Omar Khayyam, such as ─

66. (4th edn)
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell:

And by and by my Soul return’d to me,​

And answer’d, ‘I Myself am Heav’n and Hell:’​

Yeah, I don’t think it’s appropriate to lay blame on Eve. She was a child of nature, and bestowed on us our own nature. Which is flawed - corrupted - but also close to being divine.

In the meantime yes, we should as you say, live good lives, treat our neighbours well, be kind to each other while there is still time.

That is the only answer those old Hebrews ever got; in the Psalms, Ecclesiastes, Job. To live good lives, keep the commandments, “Be still, and know that I am God”.

And finally in the Gospels, that “ye should love each other, as I have loved you.”

Or as the Angel said to Adam in Paradise lost (sorry);

“Nor love thy life, nor hate; but what thou liv’st, live well,
how long or short permit to heaven”.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

i interpret Genesis 1 & 2, that there were no bugs in Eden. i could be wrong, it’s happened before

I too could be wrong, it's happened before.
Your post gave my old mind something to think about.
Humanity was to expand paradisical Eden until the garden covered the whole Earth.
Eden was part of Earth. Earth being a 'closed system' that can't exist without bugs.
( Science tells us we can't live without bees )
My understanding is that Not all types of bees sting.
So, the type of bee in Eden would have caused No harm.
What would a picnic be without the ants ! I'd miss them.
I like when the inch worms show up at picnics

Let's suppose there were No bugs in Eden, yet the changing seasons existed.
So, just knowing and seeing the difference between a live leaf and a dead leaf would show death.
A rose by any other name would still be a rose, so a dead rose would show death.
Thus, by seeing a dead leaf or a dead flower Adam and Eve could understand death even without bugs.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Not a debate forum.
For those of you who are christians and believe in a literal interpetation of Adam and Eve...how could Adam and Eve know the serpent was lying? If they had no knowledge of good and evil until they ate the fruit how could they know that? Like they couldn't have known it was wrong to listen to the serpent if they didn't know good and evil?

How did Noah know what animals were clean and unclean before Moses received that bit?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

[QUOTE="Link, post: 7223564, member: 66537].............But Adam (a) quickly repented and took leaves from the paradise, and began to fight off his sins, and not let him go to rebellion and evil..................[/QUOTE]

I find in the book of Genesis instead of repenting Adam made improper coverings - Genesis 3:7
Adam his his face from his God as per Genesis 3:8-9
At Genesis 3:12 Adam blames his God for giving him the woman Eve.
At Genesis 3:13 Eve blames the serpent.
God makes modest clothing for Adam and Eve as per Genesis 3:21 (such clothing as possibly from deer skins)
Yes, Adam did go to 'rebellion and evil' because Adam died just as God said he would.
Adam returned back to the dust of the ground where Adam started - Genesis 3:19.
A person can Not return to a place he never was before. Adam went back returning to dust for his evil rebellion.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

How did Noah know what animals were clean and unclean before Moses received that bit?

Noah did Not have to know because God directed the animals to the Ark.
Yes, this was before the Constitution of the Mosaic Law came into effect.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Not a debate forum.
For those of you who are christians and believe in a literal interpetation of Adam and Eve...how could Adam and Eve know the serpent was lying? If they had no knowledge of good and evil until they ate the fruit how could they know that? Like they couldn't have known it was wrong to listen to the serpent if they didn't know good and evil?

Yes, they had knowledge of good and evil.
God told them what the evil was at Genesis 2:17.
Breaking the Law would lead to death. Death was the evil enemy.
Living forever on a beautiful paradisical Earth was the good.

Eve could have first asked Adam about the serpent.
Adam and Eve could have asked God about the serpent.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So God created a garden, put the tree of life there and the tree of knowledge and only forbade eating from the tree of knowledge but didn't intend for them to eat from the tree of life? Illogical.

Eating from the tree of life was Not forbidden then, Nor is it future forbidden at Revelation 22:2.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And specifying that if he ate the fruit, he would die the same day.
No, not quite. God never says to Adam, I forbid you to eat from the Tree of Life, Instead, frightened that Adam will do so and become 'as one of us' (the gods), [be] boots Adam and Eve out of the Garden.
Notice that, as I said, they were incapable of sin at the time they ate the fruit because they had expressly been denied knowledge of good and evil. And notice that God never once accuses them of sin. .

Adam and Eve were Not created to live independent of God, Not independent of Earth.
Just as the word DAY today has shades of meaning, so does the Genesis DAY.
Please notice ALL of the creative days are summed up by the single word DAY at Genesis 2:4.
So, as we know grandfather's DAY was Not a 24 hour day, so too Adam's DAY was Not a 24-hour day.
In God's eyes a thousand years is as a DAY, so Adam would die within that thousand-year time frame - Genesis 5:3
See the oldest persons age as listed at Genesis 5:26.

Disobeying man is called a crime. Disobeying God is called a sin. Adam and Eve disobeyed their God.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

God specifically told them not to eat the fruit from that tree. It was an issue of obeisance.

if there is no knowledge of good or evil, how can disobedience be seen as evil?

 

[Wildswanderer]

if there is no knowledge of good or evil, how can disobedience be seen as evil?

Does a child have to understand evil in order to obey mom and dad's instructions?

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

Does a child have to understand evil in order to obey mom and dad's instructions?

we were speaking of grown ups, not children