Actual Working Models

[Eddy Daze]

Pondering on the problems faced globally by humans I have been thinking of how some societies function well ,such as non religious communes, religious communes, temple systems and kibbutz etc.(even down to hive insects such as ants and bees) is it time we tried to implement some of the ideas globally.

Also while discussing the ancient original caste system and todays problems an horrible realisation occured to me, that in general , globally it is the white race who are dominant and the darker skin colours opressed in sweat shops and on plantations to produce cheap luxury goods for the west so the caste system is still here only probably worse..slavery abolished? or just transferred?

Regarding the kibbutz I believe they made desert land fertile, this idea would solve the problem of the gm drought free crops question and heres a quote from the founder of the Hare Krsna movement

The Ideal Lifestyle


"Our farm projects are an extremely important part of our movement. We must become self sufficient by growing our own grains and producing our own milk, then there will be no question of poverty. So develop these farm communities as far as possible. They should be developed as an ideal society depending on natural products not industry. Industry has simply created godlessness, because they think they can manufacture everything that they need.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Industry has simply created godlessness, because they think they can manufacture everything that they need.

If industry can create godlessness, then it would seem they truly can manufacture anything!

 

[zenzero]

Friend ED,
You analysis is only what you see and what you see is actual a perception.
And perceptions come from the mind which reacts from the informations fed to it through your life and so is always colored and not the truth.
Truth can only when the mind is *STILL*.
Once someone stills the mind and then only one realizes that what ever man is doing is doing about of desire of the mind and no-mind has no desires and when there are desires a different quality of life evolves.
Love & rgds

 

[Eddy Daze]

And this may be of use Srila Prabhupada Speaks Out

 

[Runlikethewind]

I don't think we can ever overcome the natural human proclivity to greed and other vices (original sin) which are at the root of the global problems you describe. IMO the communes and temple systems and such can only work for a short time on a small scale before original sin kicks in and greed takes over and the strong oppress the weak as usual.

 

[Willamena]

Also while discussing the ancient original caste system and todays problems an horrible realisation occured to me, that in general , globally it is the white race who are dominant and the darker skin colours opressed in sweat shops and on plantations to produce cheap luxury goods for the west so the caste system is still here only probably worse..slavery abolished? or just transferred?

Welcome to the 18th Century.

 

[Eddy Daze]

I don't think we can ever overcome the natural human proclivity to greed and other vices (original sin) which are at the root of the global problems you describe. IMO the communes and temple systems and such can only work for a short time on a small scale before original sin kicks in and greed takes over and the strong oppress the weak as usual.

If you consider Kibbutz and other farming communities an experiment that has already been carried out and proven succesful then why not apply it globaly ?, India was self sufficient at one time, living in a kind of symbiotic relationship with the cow., and with a very large population.Also some of these systems are very long lived, indeed it is my belief that originally the world was one culture that was operating like this, the temples and religions we now see are merely remnants of this culture.

Those who know a great deal about the evolutionary theory, can they please shed some light on what is happening or has happened to human society.

 

[Eddy Daze]

Welcome to the 18th Century.

Some people are serious when they say things like that and am sometimes labelled a luddite, but we need to learn and take the good examples from nature and other cultures, it is obvious human society needs radical change,but we are not learning even after the banking system problems, we are trying to get back on the wrong destructive path. We had the ideas that chemicals would be better than organic on crops , but now we realise the dangers and are trying to tamper, control, profiteer by introducing gm technology.

 

[Runlikethewind]

If you consider Kibbutz and other farming communities an experiment that has already been carried out and proven succesful then why not apply it globaly ?

Because I am skeptical that it will work on a large scale. The people who participate in these small scale experiments generally want to be a member of the community and want the community to work. You would have to change the selfish, greedy nature of a lot of people in order for this to work on a global scale.

India was self sufficient at one time, living in a kind of symbiotic relationship with the cow., and with a very large population.

As I said, I am skeptical that such systems can work on a large scale. Since I am unfamiliar with the history of India maybe you could point to some thing that might backup this claim since I am having a hard time believing that India was ever anything like a commune....

Those who know a great deal about the evolutionary theory, can they please shed some light on what is happening or has happened to human society.

Strictly speaking the theory of evolution only deals with physiological and biological change, decent with modification, and does not strictly apply to human society although some scientists have tried to apply the principles of evolution to other areas such as sociology.

 

[Eddy Daze]

It is hard to find solid evidence of an ancient world/vedic culture or rather evidence that will be accepted, this is not suprising though as when one culture takes over another it tries to wipe out them and there cultural history, but if you consider ancient religious systems compared to owith their massive monuments and temples dedicated to God it would appear the fracturing over time is taking place , this maybe what the tower of babel story is about. I posted a question in the dharmic religion section asking if anyone had any evidence of remnants of the Vedic culture in todays societies , eg customs, rituals, language or written word , that could be traced to sanskrit

 

[painted wolf]

Genetically Modified crops are a major boon to help relieve starvation.

In Africa as much as 70% of the corn crop can die in a year due to a fungal infection... Scientists are working on producing a strain of corn that is resistant to this fungus and thus help relieve the food shortages.
(I know about this project from having talked to one of the geneticists working on the problem.)

Modern strains of cotton and other non-edible crops have been modified to produce natural insect repellents. This means that tons of poison that would have been sprayed, no longer needs to be.

India right now is having an agricultural crisis begin, due to the over use of pesticides. Only advances in Genetic technology can produce new crops to feed us.

Just remember that these scientist are not doing anything all that different than what past farmers did... they just get results a lot faster.

It took thousands of years to breed what we think of as corn... from a simple grass. Today we can adapt that corn to specific conditions in a matter of years.

wa:do

 

[Eddy Daze]

Genetically Modified crops are a major boon to help relieve starvation.

In Africa as much as 70% of the corn crop can die in a year due to a fungal infection... Scientists are working on producing a strain of corn that is resistant to this fungus and thus help relieve the food shortages.
(I know about this project from having talked to one of the geneticists working on the problem.)

Modern strains of cotton and other non-edible crops have been modified to produce natural insect repellents. This means that tons of poison that would have been sprayed, no longer needs to be.

They are doing things different, they are incorporating foriegn genes in some circumstances, or will be if this gm takes old.

all what you say may be hundred percent fact but, thats the type of sales pitch we could have had when we were once totally organic and they sold us the idea of chemicals , if we take gm on a wide scale, I think it will be a dangerous and backwards step

India right now is having an agricultural crisis begin, due to the over use of pesticides. Only advances in Genetic technology can produce new crops to feed us.

Just remember that these scientist are not doing anything all that different than what past farmers did... they just get results a lot faster.

It took thousands of years to breed what we think of as corn... from a simple grass. Today we can adapt that corn to specific conditions in a matter of years.

wa:do

thats the type of sales pitch that got us hooked on chemicals, which was dangerous and a backward step.

(dont think it ios the same as the past , as they are importing foriegn genes from seperate species arn't they)

 

[Guitar's Cry]

If you consider Kibbutz and other farming communities an experiment that has already been carried out and proven succesful then why not apply it globaly ?,

I like this idealism, but unfortunately, I think it faces the same problem as any other ecological issue: overpopulation.

Only so much food can be grown, and only so much space can be used for farming in so little time before the soil is overused.

 

[Eddy Daze]

I like this idealism, but unfortunately, I think it faces the same problem as any other ecological issue: overpopulation.

Only so much food can be grown, and only so much space can be used for farming in so little time before the soil is overused.

Recycling of waste would improve the soil and processing of vegetable waste to feed animals and using their manure should be improved, think how lush pasture is when left to the animals.The idealism is GM

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Recycling of waste would improve the soil and processing of vegetable waste to feed animals and using their manure should be improved, think how lush pasture is when left to the animals.The idealism is GM

GM?

If it works, then by all means, I think it would be a great thing to implement. Unfortunately, I think overpopulation will still be a hindrance. That, and my optimism for human charity has been short lately, and I think human greed would end up stealing the idealism of it.

 

[Eddy Daze]

GM?

If it works, then by all means, I think it would be a great thing to implement. Unfortunately, I think overpopulation will still be a hindrance. That, and my optimism for human charity has been short lately, and I think human greed would end up stealing the idealism of it.

maybe do away with money, and as I said earlier by finding some good in gm we are falling into the same trap as when we went from organic to chemical, we are swallowing the sales patter

 

[Guitar's Cry]

maybe do away with money, and as I said earlier by finding some good in gm we are falling into the same trap as when we went from organic to chemical, we are swallowing the sales patter

Oh! GM=genetic modification!

I wouldn't mind running the human governments without money, but unfortunately, I think human greed will always be there. We are, after all, Ungrateful Bipeds.

 

[painted wolf]

thats the type of sales pitch that got us hooked on chemicals, which was dangerous and a backward step.

(dont think it ios the same as the past , as they are importing foriegn genes from seperate species arn't they)

Not always... Most GM is quickly spreading adaptations already in one or two individuals. This means that rather than waiting decades for a crop to adapt you can do it in years.
(ps. swapping genes from different lifeforms is the sort of thing that viruses and bacteria already do.)

Recycling of waste would improve the soil and processing of vegetable waste to feed animals and using their manure should be improved, think how lush pasture is when left to the animals.The idealism is GM

Lush and full of deadly E.coli and Salmonella. We have been seeing larger and more dangerous outbreaks of these fecal bacteria. This is due to misuse of animal waste as fertilizer.
Also animal waste is not appropriate for all soil types and climates.
You can be adding too much of certain nutrients like Nitrogen. Which can kill crops.

The most common animal based fertilizer is fish based... and it is causing the population of the Menhaden fish to crash. (it already all but wiped out other species)

Over use of fertilizer also causes problems with toxic runoff. The dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico (and around the world) is caused by agricultural runoff, mostly in the form of animal waste.
This causes deadly algal blooms that can kill all aquatic life for hundreds of square miles.

GM isn't the only answer, but it is a valuable tool in making our impact on the planet more sustainable and less destructive.

wa:do

 

[Eddy Daze]

Not always... Most GM is quickly spreading adaptations already in one or two individuals. This means that rather than waiting decades for a crop to adapt you can do it in years.
(ps. swapping genes from different lifeforms is the sort of thing that viruses and bacteria already do.)

Lush and full of deadly E.coli and Salmonella. We have been seeing larger and more dangerous outbreaks of these fecal bacteria. This is due to misuse of animal waste as fertilizer.
Also animal waste is not appropriate for all soil types and climates.
You can be adding too much of certain nutrients like Nitrogen. Which can kill crops.

The most common animal based fertilizer is fish based... and it is causing the population of the Menhaden fish to crash. (it already all but wiped out other species)

Over use of fertilizer also causes problems with toxic runoff. The dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico (and around the world) is caused by agricultural runoff, mostly in the form of animal waste.
This causes deadly algal blooms that can kill all aquatic life for hundreds of square miles.

GM isn't the only answer, but it is a valuable tool in making our impact on the planet more sustainable and less destructive.

wa:do

The run off is exactly why we need to go organic, leeching is caused by no bulky organic matter in the soil, I think only two percent of the nitrogen on average is held on poor soil, so leads to algal bloom, the toxins in the manure and compost are mainly due to the present system of husbandry. Problems will occur with organic , but ones we can rectify, gm too dodgy, too unknown.

 

[painted wolf]

Leaching has many causes, including the ability of soils to hold moisture and the type of crop being grown. Adding cow dung won't change that.

Algal blooms are caused by more than just Nitrogen, phosphorus and other parts of animal waste also contribute.

At one point in time computers were thought of as too dodgy and too unknown.

Again I'm not saying GM is a magic bullet, but it is a valuable tool. Going backwards technologically is not the answer to hunger.

Organic practices have a much lower crop yield. That is part of why they can charge so much more for their product.

Organic practices have no way to combat the fungus that kills as much as 70% of the corn crop in Africa. No way to effectively battle insect pests and no way to maximize production in arid climates.
It works fine in the pleasant climate of California or even here in New Hampshire, but it won't work for Africa, India and other parts of the planet that are not as placid.

wa:do