Actual Working Models

[Eddy Daze]

Cow dung and other organic bulkers will retain the chemicals better and less will need to be added , if any. Some of the farmland in Lincolnshire has turned to what looks like sand, this is ideal for leaching NPK into the wterways and must require loads of water to keep the crop alive.

Computers can be bad in the hands of some, but gm is a different matter it is tampering with a basic essential commodity, and it is not about yield to feed. it is about yield to stockpile for control and profit, how can it be to feed the starving when we have stockpiles now and are not feeding the starving?

 

[painted wolf]

How can helping Africans grow more corn in their own countries be us stockpiling?

wa:do

 

[Eddy Daze]

Its the sales patter that we are saying we are doing it to help them , when we are stockpiling while they starve.

That saying of giving a man a fishing rod will feed him for life rather than fish to eat is wrong applied to here because we have nicked their labour, land , commodities and will continue to.

Tea, , bananas, sugar, coffee etc luxury goods for the west grown on land that coul feed that are gotten via the money trick . Besides the potential dangers of gm , we are gambling with the most precious of commodities, and other peoples at that. Its obscene also if you can look at what the supermarkets throw away, out of date coffee from Ethiopia, bunches of slightly too ripe bananas etc

 

[painted wolf]

How are we going to stockpile what they grow?

We don't need this strain of corn, the fungus is not a major problem for our crops (less than 20% on a really bad year).

Bananas are so badly genetically altered by man the old fashioned way that they will likely be extinct soon. (unless current efforts to develop a disease resistant strain work.)

Ethiopia makes most of its money off coffee... without it their economy would collapse. They don't exactly have a lot of other marketable goods. The fact that its celebrated as the best in the world is a mark of pride.

I'm not saying that food waste isn't a problem... But, I think the biggest problem is monoculture rather than GM.
We have so few food crops now, that the genetic diversity is bottoming out. It leaves crops (like bananas) vulnerable to diseases that can wipe out the world wide supply.

Africans growing their own corn is not a problem.

Do you realize the problems with shipping food around the world? The starvation response teams of the UN want to use local (area) grown food to relieve hunger. The US and other major agri-business countries won't allow that.
Why? Because we sell most of the worlds food. WE sell the food to the starving countries. And get huge tax-breaks for donating to the UN food bank.
So rather than get food quickly from locally grown crops, they have to wait three months or more for us to ship it to them by boat.

That is the sick part.

Anything we can do to get local food production stable helps prevent hunger.
Our sending them our old bananas would do nothing.

wa:do

 

[Eddy Daze]

We are stockpiling most food stuff we can while people starve, excess bananas etc, need not be brought over in the first place.Our freedom of choice leads to anothers prison.

I have always disagreed with monoculture,but going to gm will no doubt throw up problems , maybe some of them unfixeable.

 

[painted wolf]

We are the number one exporter of food in the world.

What problems with GM do you see? You realize that every food you eat is genetically modified already?

What is wrong with Africans growing their own corn and not loosing it to disease?

wa:do

 

[Eddy Daze]

I think the scientists working in gm, are driven by good hearts to want to help people, but it is big business that is using them to help get a basic commodity into the hands of a few, think of the potential profit that those few are thinking about.
The potential to make more unnatural crops via foriegn genes , when we want more from the plants is there and because we do not know everything about genes then we could be heading for disaster.I am in England btw , so thats where wires may have been crossed in our talk.

 

[painted wolf]

Well then you must dislike every seed company in the world.
Even those providing non-GM seeds.

Very few farmers produce their own seeds... most crops are infertile and the seeds must be produced by companies. All corn in the store is hybrid and thus unable to reproduce on its own. NO farmer can keep seeds from these varieties.

Same goes for wheat and most other crops.

Very few GM plants use transgenic genes. Most keep the genes within the species or at least within the plants. The plants themselves are highly studied to make sure they are safe.

I realize that Europe is very GM-phobic... and in many ways that is useful. It makes sure that the companies track their safety and don't go "hog wild" as the saying goes. But GM has advanced in many ways over the past couple of decades and there is a line between genuine concerns and exaggerated fears.

wa:do

 

[methylatedghosts]

If industry can create godlessness, then it would seem they truly can manufacture anything!

except Godliness

 

[Eddy Daze]

Well then you must dislike every seed company in the world.
Even those providing non-GM seeds.

Very few farmers produce their own seeds... most crops are infertile and the seeds must be produced by companies. All corn in the store is hybrid and thus unable to reproduce on its own. NO farmer can keep seeds from these varieties.

Same goes for wheat and most other crops.

Very few GM plants use transgenic genes. Most keep the genes within the species or at least within the plants. The plants themselves are highly studied to make sure they are safe.

I realize that Europe is very GM-phobic... and in many ways that is useful. It makes sure that the companies track their safety and don't go "hog wild" as the saying goes. But GM has advanced in many ways over the past couple of decades and there is a line between genuine concerns and exaggerated fears.

wa:do

I have grown shop bought corn last year, not from seed packet but from food shop, but it was very poor in producing many, is that what they have done, the gm companies? made the corn infertile?

What I have mentioned earlier regarding big business I am certain will happen, and "certain" is a word I rarely use , people who no me take heed when I use it though.

also what do you think of the stuff in these links ?
Halfbakery: Geisel Farm

 

[painted wolf]

Good old fashioned farmers made the crops infertile. Hybrids have been around since before the 1800's. Wheat has been unable to reproduce on its own for centuries.

Old fashioned farming made the crops infertile.

GM companies do make their crops infertile, but that was on the insistence of environmental groups. This way they can not "taint" "natural" crops.
It's a reasonable procaution.

I personally grow Herloom varieties. Generally the strains grown by my ancestors when I can. I find they produce enough for my use for the summer/fall, some enough to last the year... but I mostly do it to preserve genetic diversity.

Just to point out by infertile, I mean that the seeds produced can not grow healthy plants on their own. They have higher yield than herloom stock otherwise.

The transgenic pigs (and other animals) were the first step in trying to figure out how to use genetic technology to cure diseases. They were a "proof of concept" as the gene given to them would be very obvious. It would also be obvious as they age if it does any harm.
The gene itself can often used to activate on certain types of cells, say cancer cells, making them easy to find.

It may have many uses in the future and/or lead to other discoveries that ultimately save lives.

wa:do

 

[Eddy Daze]

Lets just use an analogy here and pretend there are no factory farms, and the argument to bring them in was that they could produce more food and feed the starving, they do produce more ,but the starving are still starving and the unnatural farming methods lead to deseases and distress, over four milion cows had to be slaughtered here a few years back , due to desease.

 

[Eddy Daze]

Also...The arguments put forward for introducing slaughter houses wholesale could be that , they can introduce specific food animals where they are not naturally occuring, like the desert or the polar regions, in order to feed people.

 

[painted wolf]

India, china, great parts of Africa, south and central America and many countries in South Asia now grow enough food to export. Starvation is still with us but it isn't nearly as bad as it used to be.

Poverty is the cause of starvation, not lack of food. It used to be lack of food.

Cows, goats and pigs have been native to desert regions since before the ice age. Most food in polar regions still comes from subsistence hunting.

I don't agree with factory farming of animals. But that developed as a way for the handful of meat producing companies to maximize profits. Not a way to end hunger.
Meat is a luxury food, getting people to eat massive amounts of it was a marketing ploy.

Cattle and goats are used a cultural sign of wealth in many African cultures. It has been this way for a thousand years or more. In many places they would rather starve than eat their cows. Or let their cows starve rather than thin the herd.

wa:do

 

[Eddy Daze]

how money is used to starve people

The Citizen / Campaign for Socialism


More actual working models, big and dense populations, little crime, lttle pollution,decent health care and no mass starvation.

http://images.rgs.org/imageDetails.aspx?barcode=28469
even blend in with their surroundings



Also instead of concentrating on a quick fix from gm why are we not promoting communal type systems like correctly run kibbutz, that can bring life to deserts and help the starving? its the control via stockpiled food that is letting people starve

 

[painted wolf]

I never said GM was a quick fix. I said it was a valuable tool to fight hunger. One of many such tools.
And many places/groups are promoting community gardens in urban areas. My town has a community garden as well as several small local farms.
Community Garden Resources

Just like solar power is not going to get everyone off oil, it is one of many tools that will have to do the job.

And termites work so well because they are all sterile females working for their mother, the queen. They have no health care and are often the targets of more aggressive species like soldier ants.
Not that we can't learn some things from them. Building design for natural cooling is based on Termite mounds.

There are many groups helping Africans practice sustainable agriculture so that they can produce their own food. Here is one example.
Africa Project 2020 : “Towards Sustainable Agriculture in Africa” « Desertification

A major project to map all of Africa's soil types and areas has also just finished. This will help people find places that are good for agriculture, while avoiding places where it wouldn't be sustainable.
BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | New soil map for African farmers

If you want to help people relieve starvation, then help one of the many programs that is trying to teach sustainability in the regions.
Part of the solution are crops that won't have a 70% death rate on a bad year.

wa:do

 

[Eddy Daze]

I am involved with a food relief organization.

 

[painted wolf]

Awesome!

wa:do

 

[Eddy Daze]

Its suprising what can be done on very little money and food donations.

 

[painted wolf]

Imagine what can be done when they can sustainably grow food on their own.

wa:do